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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
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7Days · 15/03/2021 02:03

All I'm saying is, post on the fwr board if you want support for your cause from fwr posters.

Overt racism is not acceptable there.

Covert racism maybe goes by me, as a white woman. I'd be surprised though as there are quite a few black and ethnic minority posters who would pick it up quicker than me and call it out.

That's it really. I'm not commenting on the world at large, or even the site. Just the bit I'm familiar with.

Porridgeoat · 15/03/2021 02:04

These opinions are held by a minority of mumsnetters and not a majority I feel.

7Days · 15/03/2021 02:10

Fair enough @Benelovencd, sorry for coming onto your board, it just popped up on active, seemed like a general conversation when I clicked in.

I meant what I said, - but it's time to skip off now and let you all get on with it.

Night night

Nenevalleykayaker · 15/03/2021 02:20

@BlackIsBlackIsBlack that’s really something else. I’m going to suggest my children read that. It’s very very poignant.

OhShutIt · 15/03/2021 02:21

I've been waiting for this thread OP. You're not alone.

nettie434 · 15/03/2021 02:35

I am a white woman who would call myself a feminist but agree that much mainstream feminism has a poor history of reflecting and supporting the views of black women FTMF30.

One of the saddest interviews I have ever heard was with the mother of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry. They were two beautiful young women who met up with friends in a park and who were let down by the police.

I also agree with you about blackface and drag. There have been posts about this in Feminism Chat - with good explanations from many women explaining why making the comparison is problematic. I know perfectly well that the phrase has different etymologies but in a global world where images of George Floyd are shared in an instant, there is only a tiny minority of people who know who mummers are. It saddens me that these explanations have not prevented some people (hopefully a minority) from continuing to make the comparison.

The thing that gives me hope is that there are women like Afua Hirsch, Reni Eddo Lodge and even Nimco Ali (the 'even' is because I am not sure she would call herself a feminist) who are establishing their right to talk (or not talk) about the things that concern them.

You are not alone.

DeeCeeCherry · 15/03/2021 04:49

BlackIsBlackIsBlack

Sojourner Truth

A true feminist.

Thank You

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 06:23

It didnt happen heiferr
An actual untruthful statement will get picked up on. That's fair enough I think.

Doubling down, despite what has been explained. Whatever.

You can keep your feminism boards, I'm not interested. What I've seen take place in this post is a poor advert for that space, I won't be putting myself in the firing line of harmful rhetoric and I don't suggest any other BW do either.

HeLa1 · 15/03/2021 06:53

I’ve been thinking about this and perhaps the exclusion has to do with the masculinisation of black women; it seems we are not part of the movement because we are subconsciously not viewed as “actual women”

BlackIsBlackIsBlack · 15/03/2021 07:12

Nenevalleykayaker, I heard it some years ago, and it has always stuck with me, especially when topics like this come up.

DeeCeeCherry, yes, she was a true feminist. Wanting equality for all women.

Gerla · 15/03/2021 07:20

The MN Feminism board is 'feminists' playing at feminism but asking the patriarchy for permission.
I genuinely don't understand this statement - what do you mean?

OP, as I am white I am obviously not going to have the same experiences as you, but I don't see why posters commenting on MM have put you off feminism? It's not like everyone posting on mn is a feminist?

Feminism is for all women. Yes, atm there is a lot of focus on trans issues but for good reason as we are seeing the redefinition of female in our society. That affects all women.

I get why you find the argument that "if this was happening to black people " argument offensive but I am guessing the point was that it is considered extremely offensive to appropriate black identity as a white person but not offensive to appropriate the identity of woman. The phrasing was rather crass but I know black feminist friends who would agree - they feel that the discrimination they face as women is greater than the discrimination they face as black. They also find drag very offensive. You don't but not everyone sees it this way. Please don't let disagreements put you off feminism as a whole though.

ShadierThanaPalmTree · 15/03/2021 07:20

I'm sorry if it isn't okay for me to post here - I am a white woman but saw this come up on the active discussions. I just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. Especially the comparisons about the BLM movement and the Sarah Vigil thing. It's absolutely infuriating. When I read about the story I couldn't help but think, I bet she wouldn't have got this much attention if she was working class or black. Feminism is a good thing, I do identify as a feminist. But unfortunately it is very centred still on a specific type of woman. I hope that this changes op, we need black women too.

ImaginaryDragon · 15/03/2021 07:23

@lunarlife

I'm not seeing any issues with saying that mainstream white oriented feminism doesn't speak to your issues OP. Or prioritize what you see as key issues.

That is different to making up abusive exchanges that seem unlikely to have happened.

If these words were said then I am truly appalled, I would expect the person to have been thrown off Mumsnet and I hope they were.

If you read the statement as - I was all like "Hey Sister!" and was effectely told "f* off you black bitch'". Does that help? This is Black and Brown people on this thread are likely to have understood the statement as this without needing translation. Just as the vigil was to show show support and make a statement of protest for the tragic death of a white woman called Sarah Everard not Black and brown women. Its a fact that black and brown people especially woman ate often asked to prove experiences that non black and brown people are non. Don't state, ask for clarification. No one will mind explaining how something differs in meaning based on intersectionality they will mind if you speak like an oppressor and effective bellow "liar, prove it!" Remember its not your lived experience of the definition of oppressor it the other persons lived experience which is the intended meaning. Intersectionality is everything. I would suggest you read White Fragility by Robin Di Angelo then Why I am no longer talk to white people about race by Reni Edo-Lodge. The reason I suggest this order is the firsr is written by awhite woman for white people - pretty much her words. The other is written from the perspective of a black woman. There are many other excellent black authors on the subject of racism and feminism I am not going to list them here because part of being part of any solution is doing the work to find that yourself. Smile
Ylvamoon · 15/03/2021 07:31

@FTMF30 - have you tried to join the feminist movement?
Have your friends come along to fight our (feminist) corner?
If you want to be part of something, you need to join in.
Assuming you are not welcome is the wrong approach.

phoenixrosehere · 15/03/2021 07:36

*Just take a look at the 'feminism' board. They use 'woke' as an insult and love people that are pro-Trump. They're trying to ingratiate themselves with the Trumpers to make themselves relevant. It's pathetic. No self respecting woman would get on board with that.

Also they're obsessed with trans people.*

Oh god yes, the trans issue. That’s why I don’t go over there. On the grand scheme of things, and everything going on in the world, trans people are the very least if at all things the mass majority of people/women are worried about. Their obsession is weird and almost screams privileged when that is their main focus.

BlackIsBlackIsBlack · 15/03/2021 07:40

I'm my opinion, true feminism would be making sure that all women, regardless of class, background, religion, colour, were on an even keel.

Only until that has happened, (which it won't, because, we, as women, are always picking each other apart) can we tackle sexism. The word unity springs to mind.

I guess it's 'easier' for ww to challenge sexism, rather than challenging racism within the sexes/at large.

It doesn't make sense to me that you can be a true feminist and hold racist/bigoted views because of the aforementioned.

So, there is 'feminism', but it's not inclusive.

So, as much as people want to disrespect Meghan markle, she is a true feminist. Giving a voice to women who, otherwise, would not be heard.

phoenixrosehere · 15/03/2021 07:49

I'm my opinion, true feminism would be making sure that all women, regardless of class, background, religion, colour, were on an even keel.Only until that has happened, (which it won't, because, we, as women, are always picking each other apart) can we tackle sexism. The word unity springs to mind.

This. Unity. That’s how I’ve always seen feminism and anything outside of that is not what I want to be a part of nor is feminism to me.

Gerla · 15/03/2021 07:49

Oh god yes, the trans issue. That’s why I don’t go over there.
That seems counterproductive. Why not go and start a thread about something that interests you?
Their obsession is weird and almost screams privileged when that is their main focus.
You think that it is weird that a lot of women are lobbying on behalf of vulnerable women prisoners to have single sex accommodation to protect them from rape? Strange idea of privilege.

OhShutIt · 15/03/2021 07:55

Yes the whole 'woke' as an insult thing is ridiculous.

To me, it literally screams ignorant, self centered and not interested in the experiences of any minority group.

As we speak, there is open support for Jordan Peterson who is quite obviously anti feminist, but because of his trans comments he has support.

Another long running example of this is support for the Conservative party becasue of this one single issue. There is not a true 'feminist' that would support the most hostile, racist, anti immigrant, anti poor, anti working mum, anti single mum, anti disabled mum (the list is never ending) because of one single issue.

Trans women are more of an issue to poor and minority women than access to free health care, decent education, benefits and support services my ass.

It's so tone deaf it's laughable.

SionnachRua · 15/03/2021 07:58

@HmmmmmmInteresting

Did I accidentally post on the feminism board,? Because I'm getting the denial I'd expect from there.
Not a surprise at all. They just can't resist going into other spaces and making everything about their favourite boogeymen (boogeywomen?).
Lessthanaballpark · 15/03/2021 08:00

I think the equivalence “you wouldn’t say/do this to/about a black person so why is it ok to do so towards women” reasoning is simply to show the flaws of logic in someone’s argument. Because on the face of it, racism is seen as socially unacceptable by the mainstream. Obviously that means that racism becomes more covert and thus harder to prove. Look at the criticisms of MM for that.

The Sarah Everard case is so tough because how do you say “what about murdered black women?” without appearing insensitive to those people who don’t care for the finer nuances of an argument.

But yes, OP, it would be a beautiful dream to invite FWR over to Black Mumsnet to cook up a feminism that is inclusive and recognises the double whammy that black women face.

phoenixrosehere · 15/03/2021 08:04

That seems counterproductive. Why not go and start a thread about something that interests you?

Because I have joined in and have read the ones that interest me and as other posters have mentioned, it goes sideways quickly when it comes to minority women so why put myself through that.

You think that it is weird that a lot of women are lobbying on behalf of vulnerable women prisoners to have single sex accommodation to protect them from rape? Strange idea of privilege.

You don’t think it’s strange to automatically assume that the first thing that trans women are going to do is rape women or that prisons are just going to throw any person who claims they’re a transwomen into a female prison?

That’s all I’m going to say about the issue and nothing else. You can choose to pursue this further but I won’t be replying for the simple fact I do not want to derail this whole thread over trans issues.

shamalidacdak · 15/03/2021 08:05

That's why most enlightened Black women are Womanists not feminists

OhShutIt · 15/03/2021 08:11

And the idea that we should start a thread on say the disparity between the treatment of Meghan and Kate speaks to the problem.

I thought feminism was for all women. If so, why does it take a black woman (of which we probably take up less than 3% mumsnet) to speak to the battering Meghan gets on a daily basis, largly by a scorned, fat, old man who is not even remotely in her league.

The juxtaposition between this and the subsequent protests as a result of the murder of Sarah Everard is stark.

We have women all over the country talking about the lack of male boundaries and respect for women, yet we have little condemnation for the BIGGEST example of this in our country. There is a powerful white man literally bullying a black princess and 'feminists' are largely silent.

I'm at the point that me chosing to interact in that space feels like begging. I have silently been observing that area for years and have long since come to the conclusion that the mumsnet version of feminism is toxic, self centred and there to feed the needs of white women only.

Luckily, that is not the experience I have of feminism outside of that bubble and the younger generation seem to be in recognition of this, and more introspective.

I'd like to think there is hope.

PomegranateQueen · 15/03/2021 08:15

Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

This is deeply offensive, trust me, they did give a shit.

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