Was Mandela a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I should introduce myself as being white and Irish before I even start. I am sorry to intrude as us Irish folk have our own little space too, but it can be a divided space at times and not particularly relevant to what I'm asking as such, and I suppose others do barge in a bit.

I have a vested interest as my dd is mixed race (Nigerian father) - her father was never involved however and she strongly identifies as Irish.

I've been listening to Irish rebel songs and one of the songs sung was this one

I don't actually know how many of you view him?

Being Irish, we have a strong culture of music confined to a small population about oppression and fights for freedom.

In any case, the IRA is viewed as a terrorist organisation by many. I am an IRA sympathiser which I should not really say I suppose, but it is what it is.

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

And Happy New Year too.

I came onto this thread ready to rage. I have NC asthis is extremely personal.

Nelson Mandela was a freedom fighter. As was Mugabe, Machel, Kwame Nkrumah, Lumumba or any revolutionist that came out of Africa in the last century that fought against colonialism and white minority rule that sought to dehumanize and disenfranchise the native populations.

my problem is the tendency of white people to sanitize Mandela like they do MLK and cherry pick what they want to hear that makes them feel lovey dovey about race relations and hold them up as ideals of peace and just overcoming injustice with love when that is not what either of them stood for.

I sympathize with the Irish, it is the way of the British unfortunately to label those fighting for their freedom as guerrilla fighters and terrorists when they kn fact are the ones infringing on people's freedom.

I was going to share my family history and the troubles my grandparents went through escaping SA as a mixed race couple during apartheid but it is absolutely heart breaking and defies any sense of humanity just how bad apartheid was, I decided against it.

I am white, I am teaching my children that Black Lives Matter and that across history all sorts of people have been discriminated against because of the colour of their skin.

My darling boy got a special award at school for doing a project on Nelson Mandela at school for black history month.

Massive row with my dad who is of 'that generation' told my 10 year old son he shouldn't be doing a project on Mandela because he was a terrorist. My son is autistic and really struggled with his grandad who he adores telling him this, when he had been taught all the good things Mandela had done.

My dad then informed me that white and Irish people had been enslaved by Arabs 'but they don't always go on about it' and proudly told me he was reading a book about it.

His views made me sick!

Sorry I've not answered your question OP. I'm hoping to read lots of replies to help me next time I have to have an argument with my racist father

Op I talked about this topic recently with my eldest DS and we always discuss the one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. It not a black and white argument is it. But if you say that in company, you are either branded a terrorist sympathiser or a traitor depending on who's listening.

Mugabe was a freedom fighter? Umm, beg to differ om that

Onlycakesshouldhavetiers

That's great for you. Happy?

Did he participate in the liberation struggle? Yes he did. End of.

I'm not going to get drawn into a land debate with you because a country's history does not begin when white people enter it. And just because you held onto a stolen asset for a hundred years does not legitimize it. It is still stolen and must be returned to its rightful owner.

Whatever failings he had as a leader and many can objectively say he did, his foreign policy was absolutely on point and admired on the African continent, because he spoke truth to power.

So yes whatever you think you are absolutely right OnlyCakes.

And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?
There are Black people in Ireland too, I'm sure you know.
Have you never asked those closer to home about their experiences of being Black and Irish? Especially older Black people who lived through the Troubles in the North? Start round Belfast. You'll find it illuminating, and rather sad. Republicans and Unionists both treated my family members badly because of their skin colour.

(I'm not talking "BlackIrish" which, as you will know, has a different meaning in Ireland)

He was both. Latter he denounced violence and isn,t that one reason he divorced Winnie because she didn,t.

You can't ever be defined as a terrorist if you are fighting against an illegal and immoral government that should not even exist and existed solely on the blood of black people. It is extremely offensive tonutter Mandela's name and terrorist in the same breath.

@june2007 when exactly would he have been a terrorist?

Sorry, OP I missed your DD is Black heritage. Apologies.
My family's experiences in NI as Black and Irish were not happy ones.
I hope that your daughter's life experiences are in better times.

Every single white government South Africa had, both under the British or the Afrikaaners had was illegitimate, and the actual terrorist organizations, imposing minority rule and killing people for their own land and wealth. All Mandela and others of his ilk did was fight for their freedom but any means necessary.

It's rewriting and sanitizing history like this that pisses me off. What were the apartheid government and British governments fighting for, the right to subjugate people and steal and plunder for their own benefit.

How the fuck is anyone fighting against that a terrorist?

Freedom fighter, no doubt.

@Jujuondstbeat

I came onto this thread ready to rage. I have NC asthis is extremely personal.

Nelson Mandela was a freedom fighter. As was Mugabe, Machel, Kwame Nkrumah, Lumumba or any revolutionist that came out of Africa in the last century that fought against colonialism and white minority rule that sought to dehumanize and disenfranchise the native populations.

my problem is the tendency of white people to sanitize Mandela like they do MLK and cherry pick what they want to hear that makes them feel lovey dovey about race relations and hold them up as ideals of peace and just overcoming injustice with love when that is not what either of them stood for.

I sympathize with the Irish, it is the way of the British unfortunately to label those fighting for their freedom as guerrilla fighters and terrorists when they kn fact are the ones infringing on people's freedom.

Totally agree with you.

(my dad also left SA as part of a mixed race couple, and as a member of the ANC)

He admitted that the ANC at the time he was involved, violated human rights, they were a violent group. Now you may say that the means were justified. But in the end thats not what caused the aparthed to end. I have a lot of respect for the man and I fully aknowledge that the aricaan government was also a violent regime.

Coming at this from a different (white, mixed European inc. Irish) background, I have always thought of Mandela’s role as similar to Pat Finucane, but I could be well wide of the mark there.

@KadyDarcy

Every single white government South Africa had, both under the British or the Afrikaaners had was illegitimate, and the actual terrorist organizations, imposing minority rule and killing people for their own land and wealth. All Mandela and others of his ilk did was fight for their freedom but any means necessary.

It's rewriting and sanitizing history like this that pisses me off. What were the apartheid government and British governments fighting for, the right to subjugate people and steal and plunder for their own benefit.

How the fuck is anyone fighting against that a terrorist?

I guess that's the OPs point though. Because by that measure the IRA weren't terrorists? They just wanted their country back from British rule.

Its another example of us learning one version of history.

It is in part what caused apartheid to end. Violent or not he was not a terrorist and its disgusting, revisionist, Eurocentric and myopic to describe him that way. Especially to people who lost their entire families to real apartheid terrorists or had family members separated from them for life because they were mixed race.

It is interesting you raise this question OP. I haven't read the full thread yet, but for full disclosure I am a white South African living in England.
I have no real knowledge of the IRA struggles and so don't have a 'side' but I have discussed with my husband at length about perspective when it comes to viewing them. (I'm quite a big Corbyn fan, which is how the subject came up)
Growing up in Apartheid SA, all freedom fighters were labelled terrorists and denounced by our press and government as such. Looking back obviously we can see that is wrong, as a previous poster has said you can't be a terrorist when what you are fighting against an illegal and immoral government and I definitely agree with that. Nelson Mandela is much loved by almost everyone in SA (there will always be the die hard right wing supporters who are not on board with the end of apartheid, even now) but he used both violent tactics and non violent ones in his fight.
I grew up with school evacuations and bomb scares and car bombs going off quite regularly as a child - I understand similar has happened in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
I don't know if the IRA are on the right side or not but I do know that it's not that clear cut most of the time. Sometimes a violent protest is all you have left when you are on your knees and the way forward is non existent. I think only time will tell where the line is there.
I don't know how the experiences in Ireland can be comparable to apartheid though - I don't think what happened to all people or colour in SA can be in the smallest bit compared to what happened in Ireland, did you have segregation of education and jobs and ability to use a loo or train based on your religion? How could that be monitored in the same way? Were you confined to specific areas to live and had to provide documentation to evidence what you were doing outside of that area (such as working for a white family in a white suburb?) What happened in SA was a human rights atrocity and whilst I understand Ireland had struggles I just don't think there could be a comparison, but it would take someone more knowledgeable about the Irish experience who has also experienced being a black South African in Apartheid era to really comment.

And yes, where I grew up there was a lot of celebration of our freedom fighters in song, some quite well known in SA

I don't know how the experiences in Ireland can be comparable to apartheid though - I don't think what happened to all people or colour in SA can be in the smallest bit compared to what happened in Ireland, did you have segregation of education and jobs and ability to use a loo or train based on your religion? How could that be monitored in the same way? Were you confined to specific areas to live and had to provide documentation to evidence what you were doing outside of that area (such as working for a white family in a white suburb?)

Why yes, indeed we had all of that and more.

What led to Bloody Sunday was a Civil Rights march against the fact that Catholics (native Irish) were not allowed to vote more or less.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

Bloody Sunday, or the Bogside Massacre,[1] was a massacre on 30 January 1972 in the Bogside area of Derry, Northern Ireland, when British soldiers shot 26 civilians during a protest march against internment without trial. Fourteen people died: 13 were killed outright, while the death of another man four months later was attributed to his injuries. Many of the victims were shot while fleeing from the soldiers, and some were shot while trying to help the wounded.[2] Other protesters were injured by shrapnel, rubber bullets, or batons, and two were run down by army vehicles.[3][4] All of those shot were Catholics. The march had been organised by the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA). The soldiers were from the 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment ("1 Para"), the same regiment implicated in the Ballymurphy massacre several months prior.[5]

And that's just Northern Ireland.

Centuries prior to that, the English came and stole our farms, taxed us into oblivion and left us homeless. Then ensued the potato famine where 2 million out of 8 million died and the other 2 million emigrated.

So yes - it is very comparable.

We were not allowed to practice our religion, nor to speak our native language. Our land was taken off us by our overlords and we were made tenants.

The Irish have always taken the side of freedom fighters - perhaps because we understand where they're coming from. I just wonder because Ireland is such a tiny place and Africa is a vast continent, whether Africans in general identified with him or whether it was maybe just South Africans.

To me he was a freedom fighter.

To a large extent NI is still very segregated. Separate education, housing, "no go" areas. The root cause is and was British colonialism.

To the poster who mentioned Jeremy Corbyn above - I too am a fan (though I only dare whisper it). I also sympathise with the cause of Palestine.

But the IRA carried out horrendous atrocities (Google Patsy Gillespie) so I can't see how anyone could defend them. Perhaps you would be better comparing Nelson Mandela to someone like Martin McGuinness. There was a similarity in the journey the 2 men made from armed struggle to statesmen.