Was Mandela a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I should introduce myself as being white and Irish before I even start. I am sorry to intrude as us Irish folk have our own little space too, but it can be a divided space at times and not particularly relevant to what I'm asking as such, and I suppose others do barge in a bit.

I have a vested interest as my dd is mixed race (Nigerian father) - her father was never involved however and she strongly identifies as Irish.

I've been listening to Irish rebel songs and one of the songs sung was this one

I don't actually know how many of you view him?

Being Irish, we have a strong culture of music confined to a small population about oppression and fights for freedom.

In any case, the IRA is viewed as a terrorist organisation by many. I am an IRA sympathiser which I should not really say I suppose, but it is what it is.

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

And Happy New Year too.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I love sharing this song with anyone who cares to listen. It's one that all of us Irish know, love and can sing, but it's a really lovely song with a brilliant story. A real story. Not a fable.

[Namechangebuttercup]

OP what about starting a new thread (here or elsewhere on mumsnet- or somewhere off Mumsnet, not that I can advise because I'm only ever on Mumsnet!) and asking about recommendations for current Nigerian pop music as well as films - like a Beginner's Guide. If she likes history and dance then she might enjoy the evolution of Nigerian music (possibly film too).

Or not even to learn anything, but just to have on in the house sometimes? She only needs to connect with one song for it to mean something to her. Anyway this isn't the thread but can't pm you from my phone.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

This is real history. Not made up fables or fairytales. Real fucking history.

I want to find something similar from the black ladies on here. Not from others who have an axe to blooming grind. That day is done.

[KadyDarcy]

buzznigeria.com/the-labour-of-these-nigerian-heroes-cannot-be-forgotten/

Im not Nigerian myself but there are plenty of sources like this all over the internet.

Can I just ask people bashing the IRA, how are you so focused on their wrongdoings but can reconcile the British occupation of a country whose people don't want you there?

I ask because whenever colonialism is brought up along with its ills, there is an immediate rush to say we built railways there like killing millions of people and stealing their natural resources is equivalent to a few defunct railways and old buildings. And then an immediate rush to label those who fought for their freedom violent terrorists when the British themselves instigated violence and made people suffer under their violent regimes for the length of their stay.

That is completely overlooked. Literally fighting and killing people to have the right to steal from them. Why stay where you aren't wanted and impose yourself on people?

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

She has some African friends at school, though I can't say where from as they're Irish-African lol. They help her out with her hair and stuff because I don't know where to start. I just put loads of conditioner in and comb it through and tie it up for her. She has tried straightening her hair twice but again it has been her friends who have helped her as I happen to have an unmanageable frizz myself, so am not much help unfortunately. She seems very proud of her Afro now though, when she was embarrassed about it when younger. She seems to be embracing it. I got her a silk pillow-case and she follows instagrammers who advise on products and curls and such. It's just a bit hard being a white Mum, when Dad was never there. I know that she's half African and while she's quite content to be Irish, I want her to be proud of that African half. That's all.

[june2007]

The question is does NI want to be part of Irland I don,t think everyone does. I think a lot of the (Irish) protetants are happy the way they are.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

Will definitely look up some Nigerian pop music - brilliant suggestion.

And Kady thanks very much for that link, I'll take a look in the morning.

As for this?

I ask because whenever colonialism is brought up along with its ills, there is an immediate rush to say we built railways there like killing millions of people and stealing their natural resources is equivalent to a few defunct railways and old buildings. And then an immediate rush to label those who fought for their freedom violent terrorists when the British themselves instigated violence and made people suffer under their violent regimes for the length of their stay.

That is completely overlooked. Literally fighting and killing people to have the right to steal from them. Why stay where you aren't wanted and impose yourself on people?

Couldn't agree more! Except, they only hear British media. Propaganda. And they haven't the eyes to see what it is.

[dreamingbohemian]

OP have you heard of the Benin Bronzes? This might be a good starting point for you and your DD to learn some Nigerian history, and the lasting impact of British colonialism there. There are loads of articles if you Google it, I like this one: www.theafricareport.com/42855/nigerias-benin-bronzes-its-not-the-place-of-the-british-to-decide-their-fate/

The Bronzes are incredibly beautiful and important artworks from the Kingdom of Benin, which the British stole after destroying the Kingdom in the late 19th century. To this day the British Museum and many other museums refuse to return them. It's a real travesty which illustrates the evils of colonialism but also how unrepentant and prejudiced the former empires continue to be.

As for your original question, violence against colonial/racist rule is typically only called terrorism by supporters of colonialism/racism.

[KadyDarcy]

Actually think starting with some AfrIcan poP music is a good idea, along with the history stuff.

I watched a nice Netflix movie about a Nigerian boy embarrassed of being African and it was quite nice and funny, I only meant to watch a bit but watched the whole thing in one sitting, it was called Gone Too Far

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

@dreamingbohemian

OP have you heard of the Benin Bronzes? This might be a good starting point for you and your DD to learn some Nigerian history, and the lasting impact of British colonialism there. There are loads of articles if you Google it, I like this one: www.theafricareport.com/42855/nigerias-benin-bronzes-its-not-the-place-of-the-british-to-decide-their-fate/

The Bronzes are incredibly beautiful and important artworks from the Kingdom of Benin, which the British stole after destroying the Kingdom in the late 19th century. To this day the British Museum and many other museums refuse to return them. It's a real travesty which illustrates the evils of colonialism but also how unrepentant and prejudiced the former empires continue to be.

As for your original question, violence against colonial/racist rule is typically only called terrorism by supporters of colonialism/racism.

That's brilliant. Will have a better look tomorrow when I'm less annoyed!

[YouBoughtMeAWall]

Worth pointing out, although I don’t wish to detract from the original thread point/question at all, but the IRA of “the troubles” was quite a different IRA than the one that began a century ago. The IRA didn’t spring up in the 70s. The way they operated then had changed significantly in the 50 years it had existed.

[RedMarauder]

OP Nigeria has an entire film industry known as Nollywood. The films aren't too my taste but there are plenty of people who like them. You can see some on Netflix.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

They're beautiful those Bronzes. Like Egyptian stuff.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

@YouBoughtMeAWall

Worth pointing out, although I don’t wish to detract from the original thread point/question at all, but the IRA of “the troubles” was quite a different IRA than the one that began a century ago. The IRA didn’t spring up in the 70s. The way they operated then had changed significantly in the 50 years it had existed.

Hiya. Yes - that's why I describe myself as a nostalgic Republican. Unfortunately, we signed a 'deal' and NI then was the Crown's. We fucked up then and there was fuck all we could do about it. Ironically, Britain's imperialism in the form of Brexit is actually driving Ireland closer to being a United Ireland again. We shall see!

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I'll check out Nollywood!

[YouBoughtMeAWall]

Hiya. Yes - that's why I describe myself as a nostalgic Republican. Unfortunately, we signed a 'deal' and NI then was the Crown's. We fucked up then and there was fuck all we could do about it. Ironically, Britain's imperialism in the form of Brexit is actually driving Ireland closer to being a United Ireland again. We shall see!

Indeed! It feels a lot closer than it ever did. That’s if there is any NI left after brexit does it’s work on our economy.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

Thanks for having me ladies and I hope I haven't intruded much. It's been lovely to hear your views. Dd will no doubt be proud of both of her ancestries as we have a common history. I just wish I knew more.

[herethereandeverywhere]

Hey obliviously as an IRA sympathizer, what's your view of the Warrington bomb? Were those children worthy collateral for the cause?

I try to understand both sides and have family connections both sides - but would never express myself to be a sympathizer - due to the likes of Warrington (and other friends who grew up fatherless after they took a bullet to the head from the IRA) or - from the other perspective - the likes of Bloody Sunday.

The conflict was wrong. No side can claim a moral high ground.

I am a (white) Mandela fan and believer - he committed crimes to further the moral right but NOTHING on the scale of the IRA.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

herethereandeverywhere

That is not what this thread is about. I've made my feelings known above. Do you have any iota of the beginnings of a neuron transmission in your brain of what the British did to Irish CHILDREN, women and men over centuries? I can tell you if you like. But this thread is not about that.

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

Do you think that the 2 million who died roaring from hunger under Cromwell were all grown men? That's not that long ago.
Do you think that the RUC didn't take men (innocent) out of their houses with their children watching and shoot the heads off them?
Do you think that the RUC and the British never killed one Irish child?

[herethereandeverywhere]

Cromwell?! Oh that makes the kids splattered all over the pavement outside McDonald's ok then!

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

2 MILLION.
That's not
2,000
20,000
200,000
It's 2,000,000.

2 million people - one quarter of our population left to starve because the British took all their crops and livestock off them.

Idiot.

[herethereandeverywhere]

It's the difference between stating we need to forgive and move on, move forward ( like Mandela was such an advocate for) and being a sympathizer.

[YouBoughtMeAWall]

I think someone is trying to get this thread deleted. Best not to engage.