Was Mandela a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I should introduce myself as being white and Irish before I even start. I am sorry to intrude as us Irish folk have our own little space too, but it can be a divided space at times and not particularly relevant to what I'm asking as such, and I suppose others do barge in a bit.

I have a vested interest as my dd is mixed race (Nigerian father) - her father was never involved however and she strongly identifies as Irish.

I've been listening to Irish rebel songs and one of the songs sung was this one

I don't actually know how many of you view him?

Being Irish, we have a strong culture of music confined to a small population about oppression and fights for freedom.

In any case, the IRA is viewed as a terrorist organisation by many. I am an IRA sympathiser which I should not really say I suppose, but it is what it is.

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

And Happy New Year too.

My daughter, being Irish, identifies very strongly with our fight for freedom. I posted on this board specifically because I wanted to find out some history on her father's side that she could identify with.

I did not invite English white posters who wouldn't know their arse from their elbow into the discussion. I would have posted on AIBU if that's the input that I wanted.

I've had some lovely suggestions and links from posters, so I'm happy and grateful for being graciously accepted and welcomed and helped.

Discussions of murder of children? Maybe start a thread on AIBU?

Wow OP, how on earth can you in all conscience believe that the IRA were right in the atrocities that they carried out! If this is what you are teaching your child it is very warped.
My family are Irish and English and I can honestly say that over the years both sides have committed horrendous acts that I can not and will not defend.
The problem this day and age is people like you holding the views that you do will keep creating divisions when we should all be uniting.
I know that it won't be all cuddles and roses but we are now in 2021 and although we mustn't forget the past we really need to try and forgive. It really doesn't have to be this toxic them and us situation, I really hope that the next generation do not harbour such divisive views! The IRA were vile murderers but so were the British. We need to teach our young people to be proud of their heritage but not that one is superior than the other!

Mandela was a complicated guy who evolved and mellowed quite a bit of his lifetime. The angry younger man who went to jail and the statesman who came out, were products of his lived experiences. If he hadn't changed as he did, there is no way, South Africa would have transitioned peacefully as it did. So he is very respected for that and his lack of bitterness for his treatment.

But yes, in many ways he would have been considered a terrorist in the beginning, as there is no denying that acts that would meet the definition of terror were carried out and he was involved in the militant wing of the ANC (Umkhonto we Sizwe - "Spear of the Nation") However, we would have to look at the context of the events and the reasons for what he and the ANC did. I think now, it's fairer to look at him as a man with many facets, rather than a saint. After all, many great people have interesting lives and quirks. I think that's what stops them being ordinary.

OP, have a look at Fela Kuti. He was a Nigerian musician and political activist. Also thought to be the 'father' of Afro-beat. This may spark some interest with your daughter.
For what its worth I don't see anything wrong with your approach to getting your daughter gaining knowledge. I'm of Caribbean parentage and I grew up in the 80's. My mum taught me about Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo, Robert Sobukwe and Steve Biko. We would visit the protest outside South Africa House.

OP, you dismissed my comments and asked me to stop ‘butting in’. On an open Internet forum, in a thread that I only clicked on because it was trending. I opened it because the question was an interesting one about a complex man who has been portrayed in a way the ignores some of his actions. Some people would prefer to pretend that his early actions didn’t happen.
But then you oh so casually mention that you are an IRA sympathiser (on a U.K. based forum) and are all offended that people don’t like the IRA. Are you taking the piss?
You talk about ‘occupiers’ and colonialism but you do know that that has nothing to do with most of us were n this site. When the IRA murdered innocent people in England those people had nothing to do with the situation, they were just randomly murdered. When catholics were murdered in NI that was not connected to ordinary people in England. Cromwell’s actions- people alive today are not responsible for that (and most people would condem them if they were).
You are retaining anger for actions from 100 years ago, all the people involved are dead. It’s like me still being angry at current male mps for the actions of earlier mps voting against women getting the vote. Or hating all Germans because of ww2. I don’t do that because I know that current Germans are not responsible for the actions of their political leaders from 80 years ago.

You say protestants in NI are land owning brits. Well may be 200 years ago, but not so much today.
Any way look at Nigerian fashion and how designers have used it to influence western catwalks.
Look at Nollywood.
Look at Nigerian music.

Yes to both.
Terrorism is simply put a tactic used in war. Doesn’t matter if it is a just war or not, this tactic is often used. Anyone who engages in war, whether to conquer or gain freedom can end up using terrorism as a tactic in that conflict. Terrorism is defined as deliberately making war on civilians, not the enemy’s armed forces. The objective is to cause the terror among the civilian population.

The WWII London Blitz was the Nazis engaging in terrorism
The WWII Dresden bombing was the British engaging in terrorism
The WWII Atom bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the US engaging in terrorism
The WWII Rape of Nanking were the Japanese engaging in terrorism

Of course there are many more examples. The point is that most of the time both sides in any conflict will use terrorism tactics regardless of how just their cause is.

Mandela and the IRA both used terrorism in their fights.

I posted on this board specifically because I wanted to find out some history on her father's side that she could identify with.

But you said her father is Nigerian. Mandela was South African. Nigeria and South Africa are as different as Canada from Mexico or Britain from Spain. Completely different nations and cultures.

You should probably research Nigerian history if you are interested in your DDs fathers side of the family. Nigeria has a rich history and was the seat of many kingdoms and empires. The last empire there before the British was the Benin Empire.

Fela Kuti is a perfect example of what I was looking for - thank you for that suggestion!

And it seems his mother was a force to be reckoned with too!

@PlanDeRaccordement I could do that, but I like to go to the source for information. To see what real people's views are on things.

@Sittinbythetree

OP, you dismissed my comments and asked me to stop ‘butting in’. On an open Internet forum, in a thread that I only clicked on because it was trending. I opened it because the question was an interesting one about a complex man who has been portrayed in a way the ignores some of his actions. Some people would prefer to pretend that his early actions didn’t happen. But then you oh so casually mention that you are an IRA sympathiser (on a U.K. based forum) and are all offended that people don’t like the IRA. Are you taking the piss? You talk about ‘occupiers’ and colonialism but you do know that that has nothing to do with most of us were n this site. When the IRA murdered innocent people in England those people had nothing to do with the situation, they were just randomly murdered. When catholics were murdered in NI that was not connected to ordinary people in England. Cromwell’s actions- people alive today are not responsible for that (and most people would condem them if they were). You are retaining anger for actions from 100 years ago, all the people involved are dead. It’s like me still being angry at current male mps for the actions of earlier mps voting against women getting the vote. Or hating all Germans because of ww2. I don’t do that because I know that current Germans are not responsible for the actions of their political leaders from 80 years ago.

I'm well aware that being an IRA sympathiser is not something that British would understand.

You want me to forget? No. We won't forget. We will not forget that many of our people gave their lives so that we could be free (well apart from the Northern Irish).

I'm coming at this from a uniquely Irish perspective - not one of a Northern Irish citizen, who have had a different history to us for the past 100 years.

The Irish are incredibly proud of their history of defeating the English. Incredibly proud. When we did 'negotiate', we ended up signing over 6 of our 32 counties and we all know how that ended up.

English people are bizarrely affronted when someone rings their doorbell uninvited. It's rather amusing. They've been uninvited occupants of many the country around the world over the years - I thought it was an English 'thing' to be honest! Funny now that the mere thought of an unannounced visitor sends them into nervous quivers of fear resulting in them having to post on MN about it.

You want me to forget this do you? To my Black friends, there were 2, not just one 'Bloody Sundays'.

Who do you think you are telling me what I should forget and move on from?

How about you actually remembered what you did instead of conveniently wanting to 'move on'?

@june2007

You say protestants in NI are land owning brits. Well may be 200 years ago, but not so much today. Any way look at Nigerian fashion and how designers have used it to influence western catwalks. Look at Nollywood. Look at Nigerian music.

They have squatters rights now I suppose?

* "You want me to forget? No. We won't forget. We will not forget that many of our people gave their lives so that we could be free (well apart from the Northern Irish).*"

OP, it's not about forgetting. The families of the innocents murdered by the IRA can't forget either. It's about moving on. Not holding a grudge, not perpetuating 'us and them', not emphasising differences, not competing over past suffering.

Mandela was the absolute supreme and gracious example of that. Your attitude is not. Compare and contrast. I hope your daughter sees the difference.

It's about remembering where we came from. Not conveniently forgetting it all for the sake of the faint-hearted British.

You can not presume to tell the Irish people what they should and shouldn't forget about.

You want us to be united? I thought that Brexit just happened, or was I imagining that?

My heart is always for the oppressed not the oppressor. That doesn't mean I always condone their methods. But I fucking hate bullies. I would always sympathise with the plight of a child who hits their bully even though hitting is wrong IYSWIM. I'm very interested in social history and civil rights, but am also a pacifist (personally, not necessarily ideologically). So a debate I've had a lot is whether violence is necessary, when and why. If there is an alternative? I'm not sure. There is not always a clear answer. And a lot of people who did great work for freedom do not hold up to current standards of scrutiny, due to views on women's rights, trans rights, Gay rights etc.

@Bluesmartiesandpandapop

My heart is always for the oppressed not the oppressor. That doesn't mean I always condone their methods. But I fucking hate bullies. I would always sympathise with the plight of a child who hits their bully even though hitting is wrong IYSWIM. I'm very interested in social history and civil rights, but am also a pacifist (personally, not necessarily ideologically). So a debate I've had a lot is whether violence is necessary, when and why. If there is an alternative? I'm not sure. There is not always a clear answer. And a lot of people who did great work for freedom do not hold up to current standards of scrutiny, due to views on women's rights, trans rights, Gay rights etc.

Good points, though I am not sure who you're referring to in your last sentence. I think that for the Irish there was no alternative. Mandela found himself in a similar predicament. We could have just rolled over and played dead I suppose? Or obediently submitted ourselves to the rule of our new overlords?

This is a fascinating thread and an important discussion.

It seems to me that most modern (eg 20th C onwards) so called 'terrorist' groups are linked to issues precipitated by occupation and colonialism.

I think if you steal people's land and therefore their lives, you deserve to suffer, frankly. I also believe that violent resistance is an acceptable pathway.

You can fight, or you can submit. The Irish chose to fight. I can never be anything other than proud of them for choosing that option.

I've already said it isn't about forgetting. I want people to stop justifying - or even glorifying - murder.

I want people to look forwards with positive and peaceful intentions, not look backwards with entrenched bitterness.

I voted remain - and preserving the fragile peace of the GFA was a critical element for me.

You are projecting some very weird and outdated stereotypes onto me, I suggest you open your mind.

Just hypothetically, how do you think the end to apartheid would have panned out of Mandela had the same attitude as you?

If the British could stop calling it 'legal occupation', then I might forget.

They've tried it with black people too when the protestors (some white) tore down the statue of the Slave Trader. But... but.... but... he built schools. You didn't want that remembered either did you?

Do you think that an abused child forgets what their parent did to them? A battered housewife? Should she just keep the peace - forgive, forget, for the sake of appeasing their abuser?