Was Mandela a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I should introduce myself as being white and Irish before I even start. I am sorry to intrude as us Irish folk have our own little space too, but it can be a divided space at times and not particularly relevant to what I'm asking as such, and I suppose others do barge in a bit.

I have a vested interest as my dd is mixed race (Nigerian father) - her father was never involved however and she strongly identifies as Irish.

I've been listening to Irish rebel songs and one of the songs sung was this one

I don't actually know how many of you view him?

Being Irish, we have a strong culture of music confined to a small population about oppression and fights for freedom.

In any case, the IRA is viewed as a terrorist organisation by many. I am an IRA sympathiser which I should not really say I suppose, but it is what it is.

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

And Happy New Year too.

The question freedom fighter or terrorist does not make sense.
@53PlanDeRaccordement earlier in the thread gets it right.

Yes to both.
Terrorism is simply put a tactic used in war. Doesn’t matter if it is a just war or not, this tactic is often used. Anyone who engages in war, whether to conquer or gain freedom can end up using terrorism as a tactic in that conflict. Terrorism is defined as deliberately making war on civilians, not the enemy’s armed forces. The objective is to cause the terror among the civilian population.

At the end of the day history is written and defined by those who have won.
And this narrative is embedded in people's psyche.
Look at Spain where even now it is too controversial to discuss the civil war.

At the end of the day history is written and defined by those who have won

Em, in Ireland we learn history specifically relating to us. In the end we won the war.

Were British attacks on the Irish, terrorism or legitimate war tactics?

We do however see how it is faring out in NI being ruled from Westminster still. Not going too well is it?

In Ireland we are free!

@ObliviouslyIgnorant

Were British attacks on the Irish, terrorism or legitimate war tactics?

Both Attacks against armed soldiers and military bases are not terrorist tactics.

Attacks against unarmed civilians are terrorist tactics.

In war, everything is given “legitimacy” even acts of terrorism. During the war, both sides condone and legitimise terrorism. And it’s not just killing civilians, often rape against civilian women and girls is used as a terror tactic.

After the war ends, usually the winning party says the end justifies the means and that the terrorist acts they did are thus justified and can’t really be “counted” as terrorism. This thread is full of examples of that mentality. Meanwhile the losing side is demonised for using the same terror tactics.

Have you ever been up north? Just wondering

@Madwomanuptheroad29

Have you ever been up north? Just wondering

Yes, studied Organisational Psychology at Jordanstown and lived in Carrickfergus.

@ObliviouslyIgnorant

I wasn't referring to anyone particularly. I really meant that in the same was as we can't judge historical figures by our modern values as things have changed to much, this can be the same with violent methods used. We cant judge desperate people for their reactions to dreadful situations either, I think.

I don't know how the experiences in Ireland can be comparable to apartheid though - I don't think what happened to all people or colour in SA can be in the smallest bit compared to what happened in Ireland, did you have segregation of education and jobs and ability to use a loo or train based on your religion? How could that be monitored in the same way? Were you confined to specific areas to live and had to provide documentation to evidence what you were doing outside of that area (such as working for a white family in a white suburb?)

OMG how ignorant can you be?

Lets start with that wonderful democratic system of voting, particularly universal suffrage.

In my lifetime in NI 'rate payers' had votes, which meant a landlord who owned 10 houses, 9 of which were rented out got 10 votes, while the renters got none. And if the rate payer had a uni degree? well they got extra votes too.

Council housing was allocated according to faith.

Schools were (and still are) segregated.

Certain jobs were only for Protestants or Catholics, and guess who got the better jobs? Guess who got the promotions.

The jobs thing was alive and well in other parts of the UK, and religious discrimination was perfectly legal until very recently.

I'm glad to see it is reducing in England (I don't have experience of other provinces) but it still happens, you might not be asked what your faith is at interview, but you might well have a discussion about the school you attended.

I suppose it's worth mentioning that the history of the IRA that I associate with is that of the one that freed Ireland. Northern Ireland has a very different history and a very different experience of the IRA.

I'm Irish, not Northern Irish. Unfortunately, we are a divided nation. Northern Ireland belongs to the Crown - not that they seem to care about them to be honest. But we are distinctly different sometimes in our views.

I'm not sure how this got onto the IRA rather than Mandela, but look, it's MN. What can you do!

Sash - it’s not ignorant for a South African person not to know specific details about life in NI some years ago.

OP, Cinderella - my ancestors were just getting on with farming. They were English tenant farmers. Rather offensive to accuse them of ‘ stealing land that did not belong to them, out of sheer greed and a ridiculous sense of higher standing. Making those they deemed inferior homeless, poor, starving and eventually killing them.’ What ridiculous hyperbole, and bizzare assumptions. They were paying rent to make a modest living out of growing and selling food.

I have realised that I don’t know much Irish history other than in relation the England / UK though, so have ordered www.amazon.co.uk/Brief-History-Ireland-Histories/dp/1849014396/ref=mp_s_a_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=History+of+Ireland&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1609684316&sr=8-9#mediamatrixmobile_secondary_view_div_1609684374918 any other recommendations (not too £) though.

OP I think that you are being deliberately divisive and controversial, the fact of the matter is that both sides were very very wrong but this was a very long time ago and harbouring all this hatred really won't get you anywhere. I feel sorry for your dd, it's not healthy or helpful to hold such narrow views. Good luck in your pursuit of knowledge.

Sash - it’s not ignorant for a South African person not to know specific details about life in NI some years ago.

It is if they are comparing things.

Both.

Mandela broke the law because the law was wrong.

I believe it honours Mandela to call him a terrorist, because that label has lost its meaning and the media display bias with who they give it to. The most recent example is the media refusing to call Anthony Warner a terrorist.

@ObliviouslyIgnorant

She has some African friends at school, though I can't say where from as they're Irish-African lol. They help her out with her hair and stuff because I don't know where to start. I just put loads of conditioner in and comb it through and tie it up for her. She has tried straightening her hair twice but again it has been her friends who have helped her as I happen to have an unmanageable frizz myself, so am not much help unfortunately. She seems very proud of her Afro now though, when she was embarrassed about it when younger. She seems to be embracing it. I got her a silk pillow-case and she follows instagrammers who advise on products and curls and such. It's just a bit hard being a white Mum, when Dad was never there. I know that she's half African and while she's quite content to be Irish, I want her to be proud of that African half. That's all.

Stop with the 'don't know' excuses and bloody learn! Read a book, web article, YouTube video etc It's not acceptable you have no idea how to deal with her hair, you've had years to learn.

Don't try to co-opt sympathy for the IRA by co-opting the struggle of black people. If you can post here with your regressive views, I can post here in opposition

I agree with this. The OP is being egregious in comparing the experience of the Irish under British rule with South Africa and even with slavery. It is not comparable.

If you want to see just far conflations like the OPs innacurate history can get, take a look at the "Irish Slaves" myth. One of the most disgraceful historically revisionist movements I've ever encountered and arguably even on a par with holocaust denial

The myth goes like this, "but but the Irish were slaves too". But it's an utter nonsense and was predictably and enthusiastically taken up by many right wing Americans, even to the extent that memes were doing the rounds that the Zong massacre slave victims were Irish not African.

Irish slaves is not nonsence. Compared to African slaves they were few. (but Irlansd is a countyry and Africa is a continent.) Yhe res flameadow I agree with.

@binkyblinky
Am new to Blackmumnetters so for that reason I'm about 5 years late!
Anyways
Your father going on about the British being enslaved reminded me of a idiot I knew who said that "English people were kept as slaves by the Romans too you know"
"So what?" I replied "its not how you're still seen as and treated as even in this present day is it? So shut your forking mouth"
After that, worked beside that man for another 3 years and never spoke to him ever once
The racist imbecile

I’m not black, so mine may not be the opinion you’re after op. But here’s my 2 pennies….

I was brought up in an area of London inhabited by many exiled ANC members.

My father (descendant of Irish immigrants) was deeply involved in trade unionism and we never bought produce from SA (cape fruit for example) as part of a movement in the mid-1980s, the campaign was highly effective, with an estimated 27% of people in Britain boycotting South African products.

I have a very clear memory of being a teenager among 1000’s of people flooding into Trafalgar Square to watch a huge screen live broadcast of Mandela being freed. It was a jubilant moment.

Mandela was an inspirational leader. He wasn’t a perfect man (who is?), but it’s hard to think of anyone quite like him.

So, no. I don’t believe he was a terrorist. He was absolutely 💯 a freedom fighter 💪

You could read Long Walk to Freedom - his book if you’d like to learn more about him.

And Country of My Skull is a fascinating (if harrowing) nonfiction book by Antjie Krog about the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It’s a powerful description of how the country tried to heal from the wounds of apartheid by listening to each other’s experiences. (Imagine that in today’s society?!)

@ObliviouslyIgnorant
To me he was a freedom fighter
Apartheid in South Africa was wrong and many injustices/cruelties happened
Anyone black had no rights whatsoever and were overpoliced brutally
Manys the time I'd heard a white person here in the UK say that's what England should be more like
When imprisoned he had to wear short trousers and was referred to as 'Boy' can you imagine that?
A man of his stature
To me he's one of the greatest
To one m thatcher her government and the British right-wing press he was a vilified terrorist and deserved death
Enough initially said

That isn't quite true re Thatcher, her attitude was more complex than that.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/04/the-end-of-apartheid-diary-of-revolution-robin-renwick-review

Mugabe was an utter monster. Pure evil.

As for the IRA, if anyone thinks killing small kids is acceptable, shame on you.

OP, I’m Irish and I can hardly believe you have the gall to start a thread and tell people you’re an IRA sympathiser, a terrorist sympathiser!

Just want to let other posters know that OP is one of a small minority. Most Irish people despise what both the provisional IRA and the loyalist terrorists did in the three decades before the Good Friday Agreement. And not forgetting the terror of the Omagh bombing shortly afterwards.

I honestly can hardly believe you admit to supporting murder. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Could not agree more. Shameful.