Was Mandela a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

[ObliviouslyIgnorant]

I should introduce myself as being white and Irish before I even start. I am sorry to intrude as us Irish folk have our own little space too, but it can be a divided space at times and not particularly relevant to what I'm asking as such, and I suppose others do barge in a bit.

I have a vested interest as my dd is mixed race (Nigerian father) - her father was never involved however and she strongly identifies as Irish.

I've been listening to Irish rebel songs and one of the songs sung was this one

I don't actually know how many of you view him?

Being Irish, we have a strong culture of music confined to a small population about oppression and fights for freedom.

In any case, the IRA is viewed as a terrorist organisation by many. I am an IRA sympathiser which I should not really say I suppose, but it is what it is.

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

And Happy New Year too.

Rather than comparing one man with a whole organisation. Some bad, bad bastards in the IRA.

My dd is heavily involved in Irish culture and music and has grown up with that history, though in a modern time. I was wondering whether Africans have similar songs and such? Rebel songs and the likes.

The Irish and the Irish Diaspora have always supported fights for freedom in countries far and wide - not just our own.

@BadEyeBri

But the IRA carried out horrendous atrocities (Google Patsy Gillespie) so I can't see how anyone could defend them. Perhaps you would be better comparing Nelson Mandela to someone like Martin McGuinness. There was a similarity in the journey the 2 men made from armed struggle to statesmen.

McGuinness was well known to have been a leader of the IRA for a long time?

A freedom fighter. Always. I used to send money to the ANC.

Atrocities happen in war. I believe that 'The Troubles' was a war. I know that it's not a popular view, but it is my view.

McGuiness was leader of the IRA. However he was also deputy first minister of NI sharing power with the DUP in the NI executive. That's a fairly massive change.
I think you're looking at the IRA and armed Irish Republicanism through rose tinted glasses. It's dangerous to romanticise.
John Hume did more for NI than anyone in it's history. He didn't need to kill anyone.

Thanks for replying btw. I don't actually have any African friends in real life, so wasn't sure how well this would go down as a topic. I'm interested for my daughter's sake, so that she can be proud of her black heritage as well as of her Irish heritage - though with no black influence in her life, I'm trying to do her justice all on my own I guess.

@BadEyeBri

McGuiness was leader of the IRA. However he was also deputy first minister of NI sharing power with the DUP in the NI executive. That's a fairly massive change. I think you're looking at the IRA and armed Irish Republicanism through rose tinted glasses. It's dangerous to romanticise. John Hume did more for NI than anyone in it's history. He didn't need to kill anyone.

I would classify myself as a patriot, a nationalist and a nostalgic Republican. Too much water under the bridge now for romantic Ireland as it once was.

I'm sort of of this way of thinking BadEyeBri

September 1913
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS
What need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone;
For men were born to pray and save:
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Yet they were of a different kind,
The names that stilled your childish play,
They have gone about the world like wind,
But little time had they to pray
For whom the hangman’s rope was spun,
And what, God help us, could they save?
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Yet could we turn the years again,
And call those exiles as they were
In all their loneliness and pain,
You’d cry, ‘Some woman’s yellow hair
Has maddened every mother’s son’:
They weighed so lightly what they gave.
But let them be, they’re dead and gone,
They’re with O’Leary in the grave.

We had to study that for the Leaving Cert. I took a gamble on Yeats coming up that year and he did - so I actually hadn't studied any other poets! I was quite the expert on Yeats as it turned out lol.

Not sure if you know much about him, but he was madly in love with a die-hard Republican. He always came second to her fight for freedom. His poetry is quite pathetic in some ways, but a really good social study of the time.

Some bad, bad bastards in the IRA.

Necklacing was pretty grim.

Was British colonialism grim?

I sort of wanted this to be for black mumsnetters to educate me on stuff that my daughter might be proud of.

I don't want it to be a discussion on the IRA.

Well I'm sure you will learn very soon OP, the voices actual black mumsnetters are very often drowned out by those who feel what they have to say is more important, or to prove a point as evidenced by a recently deleted thread. Troll it enough and the thread will be deleted courtesy of MN, instead of dealing with the rabble rousers.

Out of interest OP I'm puzzled why if your daughter is part Nigerian she isn't also learning more about Nigeria and in particular more about her father's culture whether it is Igbo,Yoruba, Hausa or a smaller tribe.

Only because it is like an American studying Danish people when they claim their roots are from Croatia because they are both in "Europe".

One of the problems especially in the UK, which was really highlighted last Black history month, is that there is a refusal to study black people in the country they live in and their own specific roots. Instead you get informed about the American civil rights movement, Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela when actually there is black history in the country you live in as well as the countries your family is from that is never told.

Oh and yes plenty of freedom songs across the entire continent - well as you know since it was all colonized and almost every country had to fight for their freedom

@RedMarauder

Out of interest OP I'm puzzled why if your daughter is part Nigerian she isn't also learning more about Nigeria and in particular more about her father's culture whether it is Igbo,Yoruba, Hausa or a smaller tribe.

Only because it is like an American studying Danish people when they claim their roots are from Croatia because they are both in "Europe".

One of the problems especially in the UK, which was really highlighted last Black history month, is that there is a refusal to study black people in the country they live in and their own specific roots. Instead you get informed about the American civil rights movement, Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela when actually there is black history in the country you live in as well as the countries your family is from that is never told.

Oh dang I didn't realize your DD was Nigerian. Nigerian history is rich and full of so many great people. Even their participation in liberating other African countries.

Not to dissuade you but surely this is something your DD can better identify with. You are right Red about reducing black history to colonialism or a few well known people (and often bastardized whitewashed versions that are palatable to a Western lens).

@RedMarauder

Out of interest OP I'm puzzled why if your daughter is part Nigerian she isn't also learning more about Nigeria and in particular more about her father's culture whether it is Igbo,Yoruba, Hausa or a smaller tribe.

Only because it is like an American studying Danish people when they claim their roots are from Croatia because they are both in "Europe".

One of the problems especially in the UK, which was really highlighted last Black history month, is that there is a refusal to study black people in the country they live in and their own specific roots. Instead you get informed about the American civil rights movement, Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela when actually there is black history in the country you live in as well as the countries your family is from that is never told.

Because she has so far shown nothing but disdain for her father (he fucked off when I told him that I was pregnant) and I personally know the sum total of ZERO about Nigeria. I thought Black was a good starting point. Anything Nigeria specific would be helpful, but since this is an English website, I thought that might glean zero replies.

She is a very strong confident young woman. Involved in theatre, music, dance all since she was 4. I put her in hip-hop classes as well as Irish dance classes. We have no African friends at all.

She's very much a leader and I can tell her much about strong Irish women. I don't know anything about strong Nigerian or even African women in history.
I try to drop little snippets in about black culture, but largely she doesn't care.

I do know however that she does in fact care. And I want her to be proud of all of herself. Not just her Irish side.

Surely the first thing to do is learn Nigerian history not SA? Yes it,s interesting and growing up it was still relevant for us in uk. (In the news, boycots linked to uk history ect.) But surely you need to learn about nigeria especially with news from Nigeria coming up quite frequently at the moment.

I sort of figured Mandela might be someone she could identify with - being African and a freedom fighter and since the Irish actually sing about him too. She tends to get an A in History, though has no interest in studying it later.

I think that anything on the news currently further alienates her from identifying as Nigerian.
I just want her to have proud African idols to look up to so that she doesn't deny one whole half of herself.
I have no clue what I'm doing really. I didn't get a book on raising a mixed race child with an absent father.

Mandela - he was clearly a freedom fighter who used violence, I think it’s wrong that this aspect of his life is airbrushed out of history .
The IRA - I think it’s revolting to sympathise with people who blew up innocent and uninvolved people, including children, whatever the cause.

@Sittinbythetree

Mandela - he was clearly a freedom fighter who used violence, I think it’s wrong that this aspect of his life is airbrushed out of history . The IRA - I think it’s revolting to sympathise with people who blew up innocent and uninvolved people, including children, whatever the cause.

Well what the British did when they shot all seven signatories to the Irish Proclamation was a little revolting too? One of them was 18. Just a teenager. Ceant I think his name was? A further 9 followed them. They were executed by British Military. No trial. Nothing. Just shot. She knows all that shit. I want to know about people she can be proud of from Africa. Please stop butting in.

I can see now why you fought hard for this little space on MN! Dear oh dear!