Page 6 | Was Mandela a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

Littlepaws18 · 03/01/2021 12:13

The issue is whether violence can ever be justified. Mandela did do violent acts but not against people. Does that make it ok? The Suffragettes were violent but they believed it was the only way to get their voices heard. Malcom X too used violence in the American Civil Rights movement.

These people constructed radical social changes which benefit society today, ending social injustice moving equality further across the world.

Emmeline Pankhurst said 'there is no greater argument than a broken window pane in politics.' (Or words to that effect)

Without these people society and the world view of cultures, gender, religion and races would be very different. So can violence ever be justified? It's a tough question to answer, ideally no but maybe some issues are just so important they are worth literally fighting for.

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:15

So can violence ever be justified? It's a tough question to answer, ideally no but maybe some issues are just so important they are worth literally fighting for.

I agree 100%. It's a difficult one to answer and I too fear violence of any kind. But I hate oppression more.

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haggistramp · 03/01/2021 12:18

How old if your dd? Does she want to learn about her Nigerian background? I ask because I'm from a similar background, mixed race but brought up 100% scottish. My asian father left when I was young and I have no memories of him. I have no desire to learn of my asian background. I consider myself scottish and have no need to learn about asian culture, which would i, its of no consequence to me. Other than my physical looks, I consider myself scottish as that is where and how I have been raised.

To answer your op, I like you also sympathise with the ira even if I despise some of the thing they did. But the ira (and Nelson Mandela likewise) didn't come to be in a vacuum, and as much as they committed atrocities, atrocities were committed against them. Perhaps Britain (English establishment) needs to look at itself before pointing fingers.

herethereandeverywhere · 03/01/2021 12:19

OP: those comparisons are so offensive.

"You didn't want that remembered either did you?"
Just to clarify, are you actually suggesting I want to forget the suffering of the slave trade?!

Or even the suffering of the Irish under British occupation or the suffering of those that were maimed and died at the hands of the IRA?

I've said, repeatedly that it is not about forgetting. It's about moving on. Like Mandela did. So I'll ask again OP:-

Just hypothetically, how do you think the end to apartheid would have panned out of Mandela had the same attitude as you?

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:23

If Mandela hadn't fought in the first place, he would never have been in the position to utilise peaceful means. That answer your question? Or are you going to keep asking me the same thing when I'm trying to 'forget and move on' from the fact that you're on this thread.

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Sittinbythetree · 03/01/2021 12:24

OP - no one is asking you to forget. Just suggesting that you don’t need to be angry NOW with English people who have NOTHING to do with the actions of earlier generations. Just like I’m not currently angry with all German people because of WWI. I’m perfectly aware of what Cromwell did and what happened in Dublin (I’ve been to Kilmainham Gaol), I don’t feel guilty about what happened though - my ancestors were just getting on with farming then.

I think it’s very sad that you’re bringing up your daughter with hatred about things from long ago, it’s hardly the way to heal the wounds of the past. She lives in a free, prosperous and democratic country which has moved on from the sectarian violence of the past due to some of the leaders maturing, negotiating and putting violence behind them to reach a peaceful settlement. Just like Mandela did. You come across as having a very naive and romantic understanding of the past, it is really ridiculous to remain angry about Oliver Cromwell.

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:25

Does she want to learn about her Nigerian background?

She does and she doesn't. She clings so closely to her Irish heritage though that I want her to know about her African heritage too. I want her to be 100% comfortable and proud of both halves of her history.

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Sittinbythetree · 03/01/2021 12:27

OP - are you currently oppressed? Is anyone on the island of Ireland? All the Irish people I know are glad that troubles are over and dread their return. You sound like you’d welcome it.

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:29

@Sittinbythetree

OP - no one is asking you to forget. Just suggesting that you don’t need to be angry NOW with English people who have NOTHING to do with the actions of earlier generations. Just like I’m not currently angry with all German people because of WWI. I’m perfectly aware of what Cromwell did and what happened in Dublin (I’ve been to Kilmainham Gaol), I don’t feel guilty about what happened though - my ancestors were just getting on with farming then.

I think it’s very sad that you’re bringing up your daughter with hatred about things from long ago, it’s hardly the way to heal the wounds of the past. She lives in a free, prosperous and democratic country which has moved on from the sectarian violence of the past due to some of the leaders maturing, negotiating and putting violence behind them to reach a peaceful settlement. Just like Mandela did. You come across as having a very naive and romantic understanding of the past, it is really ridiculous to remain angry about Oliver Cromwell.

I'm bringing my daughter up with pride in her brilliant and rich history.

You're not Irish, you have NO idea how Irish people feel about Cromwell and his comrades and why do you insist on telling me what I should be feeling. Lol. You'd never survive a night of rebel songs!

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Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:34

OP - are you currently oppressed?
Yes, I feel oppressed by you sticking your nose in when I wasn't asking for your opinion. I was asking for the views of the Black posters on here.

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Sittinbythetree · 03/01/2021 12:40

I don’t think I’ve told you what you should be feeling. Just that I think it seems a bit to be bringing your daughter up singing rebel songs from 100s of years ago as though they are current. I can understand singing them as part of your heritage/ because they are stirring / good tune but I can’t understand you singing them as if you still have stuff to be angry about from so long ago. It sounds more like a way of having a bit of drama than anything else.

Sittinbythetree · 03/01/2021 12:47

I only saw your thread because it was trending! And I clicked it because it was an interesting question. I tend not to look at which section active threads are on so didn’t realise it was the Black MNers section. Your OP didn’t make it clear that you only wanted to hear from black people who were also IRA sympathisers. Do really feel oppressed by me? Why don’t you start a new thread without the IRA bit in if you want to know about Nigerian history.

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:52

@Sittinbythetree

I only saw your thread because it was trending! And I clicked it because it was an interesting question. I tend not to look at which section active threads are on so didn’t realise it was the Black MNers section. Your OP didn’t make it clear that you only wanted to hear from black people who were also IRA sympathisers. Do really feel oppressed by me? Why don’t you start a new thread without the IRA bit in if you want to know about Nigerian history.

How about you read my OP?

My OP made it very clear why I was posting where I was and from who I specifically wanted to hear. Hint - it wasn't you.

How about you don't tell me how to post?

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Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:54

Look, I apologise to the posters who took the time to answer, but this thread has been utterly derailed and I am genuinely sorry to have brought this shit onto your board. You'll always be welcome on Craicnet btw!!

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Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 12:57

@Sittinbythetree

I don’t think I’ve told you what you should be feeling. Just that I think it seems a bit

to be bringing your daughter up singing rebel songs from 100s of years ago as though they are current. I can understand singing them as part of your heritage/ because they are stirring / good tune but I can’t understand you singing them as if you still have stuff to be angry about from so long ago. It sounds more like a way of having a bit of drama than anything else.

Nearly all of Ireland grew up with this sort of stuff. This girl is 19 - from County Cork - the rebel county.

We absolutely love singing rebel songs.

www.facebook.com/meadhbhwalshmusic/videos/2235304133279771

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Sittinbythetree · 03/01/2021 13:00

I did read your OP, these were your questions:

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

You did not specify who you wanted to hear from, and, as I said before, I only clicked because it was trending and an interesting q.

You didn’t mention wanting to know Nigerian history for your DD. Your OP focused on what similarities there were between Nelson Mandela and the IRA. You’ve then got annoyed when people have given you their opinions. You literally asked if people viewed the IRA as terrorists or freedom fighters.

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 13:04

@Sittinbythetree

I did read your OP, these were your questions:

So, I suppose I have a couple of questions. Do you see Mandela as a freedom fighter or a terrorist? How about the IRA? Do you celebrate your freedom fighters in song? And if you know anything about Ireland, I suppose, do you identify a little with the Irish people?

You did not specify who you wanted to hear from, and, as I said before, I only clicked because it was trending and an interesting q.

You didn’t mention wanting to know Nigerian history for your DD. Your OP focused on what similarities there were between Nelson Mandela and the IRA. You’ve then got annoyed when people have given you their opinions. You literally asked if people viewed the IRA as terrorists or freedom fighters.

Did you skip over this bit?

I should introduce myself as being white and Irish before I even start. I am sorry to intrude as us Irish folk have our own little space too, but it can be a divided space at times and not particularly relevant to what I'm asking as such, and I suppose others do barge in a bit.

I have a vested interest as my dd is mixed race (Nigerian father) - her father was never involved however and she strongly identifies as Irish.

Did you pass English at school?

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Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 13:04

You knew exactly where you were posting.

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Cinderella2020 · 03/01/2021 13:05

@Sittinbythetree

OP - no one is asking you to forget. Just suggesting that you don’t need to be angry NOW with English people who have NOTHING to do with the actions of earlier generations. Just like I’m not currently angry with all German people because of WWI. I’m perfectly aware of what Cromwell did and what happened in Dublin (I’ve been to Kilmainham Gaol), I don’t feel guilty about what happened though - my ancestors were just getting on with farming then.

I think it’s very sad that you’re bringing up your daughter with hatred about things from long ago, it’s hardly the way to heal the wounds of the past. She lives in a free, prosperous and democratic country which has moved on from the sectarian violence of the past due to some of the leaders maturing, negotiating and putting violence behind them to reach a peaceful settlement. Just like Mandela did. You come across as having a very naive and romantic understanding of the past, it is really ridiculous to remain angry about Oliver Cromwell.

"My ancestors were just getting on with farming" - this sentence is incredibly offensive.

They weren't just "getting on with farming", they were stealing land that did not belong to them, out of sheer greed and a ridiculous sense of higher standing. Making those they deemed inferior homeless, poor, starving and eventually killing them. This does not equate to "just getting on with farming".

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 13:11

Cinderella2020

My ancestors were just getting on with farming too until they were plundered, pillaged and their land was stolen from them. But let's forget all that jazz eh?

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june2007 · 03/01/2021 13:15

Quite a few Scotish Lairds went over and confiscated land as well but you forget that. does that not fit in with your anti English retoric?

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 13:15

Mercifully the centuries of policing what the Irish got up to are over. Do you think we revere the British in private? Lol.

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june2007 · 03/01/2021 13:15

We all know Attrocities were made in the past that does not justify atrocities of today.

Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 13:16

@june2007

Quite a few Scotish Lairds went over and confiscated land as well but you forget that. does that not fit in with your anti English retoric?

It was under the English Crown. I'm well aware of the fact that it was Scottish lords who were planted in NI particularly. We do actually study history in Ireland.

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Original poster

ObliviouslyIgnorant · 03/01/2021 13:18

I'm not anti-English funnily enough. They're a nice enough people - an innocent sort I suppose.

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