For not wanting a sliver of pain during childbirth (support for stillbirth)

[karmathreefold]

and then wanting extreme agony as punishment?

It's my fault... I knew the baby wasn't as active as usual, yet I thought it was OK.

I had a friend who had a stillbirth & she told me to check out any reduced movements - which I did, for my son, DD & in this pregnancy.

But I fucking didn't on tuesday, and I waited till the evening, when I knew it should be more active till I went to hospital.

So now I have to give birth to it. It's fully formed at 37 weeks gestation. If I'd got to hospital on time it could have maybe been saved.

I don't want to feel pain giving birth; yet I feel I deserve it, why not after it's all my fault.

I've never felt such pain as I do no, so maybe even a drugs-free labour would be less painful.

Oh god, I don't want this pain, I can't stand it

So sorry, stupid predictive iPhone , Im sure it won't come to it but remember you have your psychiatrist and cpn who would be able to tell ss that they have no concerns for your dds welfare , hopefully the hospital were just concerned for you and you won't hear anything else from them.

I'm finding sleeping hard as well, just can't seem to fall asleep. Somehow things seem worse in the dark. I keep thinking why didn't I realise my cervix was opening, how could I not know it was happening (i didn't know I had ic and my cervix started opening and my son was born at 20 weeks) I also find at night I fantasise that it didn't happen and that everything's still ok.

My ds is nearly 8 months and some days he's the only reason I get out of bed. Sometimes I'd just love to curl up in bed and stay there.

Is your dh at home with you still, my dp had to go back to work pretty soon after xx

DH is still at home with me - for that I'm thankful. He did, however, suffer from crippling depression in the past, and is struggling to cope at the moment, but he is so wonderful with DD, especially as I can't even change her nappies at the moment.

Moomin I'm so sorry about your son, but I'm glad that someone else hates the dark xx

I still feel intense guilt. I'd worried myself sick about stillbirth in this pregnancy. It did fill my thoughts, and I'd ring the doctor continuously querying something - so I can never forgive myself for not going in early on the day, when I had an inkling something was wrong - I will never now know if something was wrong.... and it was so unlike me, I used to go in to hospital for the slightest niggle - I have a feeling I knew she was gone - knew, but was powerless to change it, and almost wanted to live the dream a bit longer, as if I couldn'[t bear to go in, for my worst fears to be realised, to have to let go.

There is something else I've done - far, far worse. On saturday night my blood pressure was 145/125, and I was more concernted with the midwife taking notice on that, than on properly concetrating on Tamsin. When I held her in m arms she was so cold, so heavy - almost wet feeling. And for one minute - one horrible minute that will haunt me until I die, and that I can't get out of my head, that I can never forgive myself for - I blamed her, I for one second thought I wouldn't be in this pain (mentally & physically) if it wasn't for her... how fcking horrible am I? I am a demon of a person, and she didn't deserve a heartless bitch of a mum. I'm so traumatised by that thought that I can't stop crying, there is no punishment too great for what I thought - none at all.

I did quickly put that thought out of my head, and looked at her & held her close, I cried like mad with her in my arms, remembering the first time I saw her on a scan = when she was no more than a 'fetal pole'. All the feelings of love, hope & dreams then came back, and I told her over & over again how much I loved her - I almost felt more connected to her than to either of my other children when pregnant.

I don't care if you all hate me for that thought (which I'm too ashamed to tell anyone else), but I do care that she may now think that her mum didn't love her - and I do - so much I can't bear it, so much that the pain of losing her is affecting my ability to interact with DD!.

I did put a card in with her - and in it I wrote a whole ream of feelings I had for her, how much all her family loved her. I put in a muslin I'd worn in my top - next to my breast. I even expressed a tiny amount of milk & placed on her lips & over her teddy, so she'd feel that nourishment from me, yet still my horrible thought has tainted it all

When my twin baby boy died (aged 7 months) I clearly remember thinking 'Im glad that he didn't have to go through open heart surgery because I just couldn't cope with it.' The morning he died he had been crying for about an hour. I took him into our bed and we snuggled up together. I was beyond tired having been up many times in the night with my twins. I shouted at him and said 'Oh for Gods sake, please stop crying.'

For many years those thoughts and words haunted me. As time has passed by I realise why I said and thought them. Please try not to be so hard on yourself. I know it is easy for me to say and how hard it is to do. xx

shabba hugs xx

The crisis team have just phoned again - asking again about day hospital... they really recommend strongly that I attend... that it will help to be away from things that remind me of whats happened.

They think that it would help my recovery to be away from DD1, DH *& things that remind me of Tamsin, and be with other people and normal life.

They are coming this afternoon, to try to persuade me.

I'm so scared...

We are trying to arrange the funeral, choose the flowers, choose the songs, plan the service - how the fuck can I do that whilst being with people who have mental illness (but not for bereavement). I had a breakdown & attended there a few times, I'd HATE to be around someone like I was, right now - and people who are high would be intolerable... I also couldn't seriously go to a 'think positively' class, or how to improve self-confidence, or music class - or anything, leaving DH to sort out everything.

I'm also scared about DH if I were to go to day hospital - he'd not only have to sort out the funeral, look after DD1 (which he is doing now, but I'm here to help), but he'd also be alone in his grief!

His baby daughter just died, he's in emotional turmoil, and he has strangers suggesting his wife leave him for a few hours a day - alone - so she can try to forget... He will end up with a mental breakdown & how the hell can that be good for DD1?

After my waters broke the consultant spoke to us, he said we had two choices, to try to carry on as things were or to do a termination on medical grounds as without water Jacobs lungs might not develope and it was possible that even if he went to term he would die because of this.

I remember thinking for a split second that it would be better if he did die so we didn't have to make the choice. When labour started and the choice was taken away from us I prayed that he would die before he was born because I was scared he might be in pain and the hospital wouldn't give any intervention. Even so who wishes their baby would die before they get to meet him. Surly I should have wanted him to be alive even for a few minutes so we could tell him how much we loved him .

Grief does awful things to you. It wasn't your fault and noone will hate you for something you thought for a couple of seconds at the worst time in your life, I know the only person punishing and hating me is myself .

Speak to them calmly and explain like you have on here why you don't think it is a good idea for you at this time, tell them maybe in the future but at the moment you need to help arrange the funeral.

I trained as a mh nurse and don't know why they think it would be a good idea now before you have even had the funeral

Let us know how you are later xx

karma it is normal to blame the person who died.

I still don't know exactly how Sylvie-Rose died but was told by a neonatologist in the hospital that sometimes premature babies "forget to breathe" so are more prone to SIDS. I have found myself asking, "How the hell did you forget to breathe, surely everyone knows you have to breathe?" and then feel bad because it wasn't her fault she was premature.

How dreadful that you had to sit in a room with a cot! Even if that was the only room, surely it's not rocket-science to remove the cot!

Thank you Moomin & Chip xx

I feel really, really dizzy & scared at the moment, I actually feel like I'm going to faint & am having palpitations - just with the thought of having to face the crisis team.

I had some major disagreements with the psychiatrist in charge of the crisis team before - my psychiatrist referred me before (long before meeting DH), as I was very slightly 'hypomanic' and she just wanted them to watch me take my meds - she promised not to send me to day hospital, as I was always worse there.

When the crisis psychiatrist heard that I refused to go, he came and threatened to section me - and I wasn't even ill then - the staff themselves said I was normal, just a bit happier.

This time I'm frightened he will threaten to section me again, and the fear is making me feel so sick, shaky and faint. I feel my life is spiralling out of control.

I do not want to go to the hospital as I've had major surgery, feel pain if I walk too much, and I don't want to be medictated too much. I've started on a low dose lamotrigine, and oxazepam. My psychiatrist does NOT want me to take an antipsychotic as I'm not psychotic, and I want to feel & remember.

My only crime is losing a baby, and being extremely upset about it. I'm so angry that these fears are tainting everything.

They have said that my scratches are a sign that I'm suicidal (which I'm not - how the heck could I do that to DD1 & DH? There is a world of difference between wishing I'd died instead of Tamsin - which I do, to actively seeking to end my life - if I thought that I wouldn't have gone to hospital last night).

I think they must be trying to put some interventions in place so you don't become unwell again.

What they don't seem to be taking into account that how you are feeling is a normal part of grieving. It's impossible to tell why they think a day centre is the best course of action without knowing you or your cpn, however I believe that if you don't think it would be of help to you at the moment then it probably won't be under these circumstances.

I hope you can explain to them why you don't believe that a day centre will be of help to you at the minute, that you need to be at home helping with the funeral arrangments.

It seems that they are concentrating on your bipolar and not taking into account that you are grieving , maybe you could ask if their are any mh services that deal with grief and make it clear that this might be more helpful to you right now than the day centre.

I hope that they listen to you and that you can make them see that they are causing you more stress when you could realy do with their support xx

I took a deep breath & explained to the crisis team that I wasn't interested in the day hospital, that I have a bereavement midwife, that I'm physically not well enough - let alone mentally - to attend the hospital, and they understood.

DH took DD1 upstairs, as she cried when they came in (I think she's getting quite confused & overwhelmed by the amount of visitors that we have).

I told them it was hard to try to keep our emotions away from her, but we do, and (as much as humanly possible) also don't cry in front of her. The crisis team said that I needed to be careful that DD1 doesn't become depressed too???

They also said that she is probably feeling rejected & is very unhappy that I don't love her anymore, as I can't pick her up (due to c section), but I explained that I do sit on the sofa with her (when she sits still), and that even if Tamsin had lived, I'd still have not been able to pick up DD1, as she is too heavy, and my midwfe has banned it.

I do try with DD though. I sing to her - even "if your happy and you know it clap your hands" - which is torturous, I can't believe a single song could be so damned hard to sing.

I still can't believe that this has happened. Tamsin would have been born this week - yet I'm arranging her funeral. I still feel as if it's all a dream - in fact I'm sure it is, everything feels such a blur, and DH and I are both exhausted. Add to that a kidney infection & I just feel wretched. It feels as though nothing will ever be the same again, & I feel slightly numb, as if things are blunted, as if anything that could ever bring me joy, will never be the same again

I'm glad the crisis team understood, don't feel bad about picking up your dd, it won't be for long and your still playing and talking to her as much as you can, I'm sure she isn't feeling rejected and is just like you said over whelmed with all the new people comming into her home.

I haven't reached the point yet where I can feel happiness or joy, for me some days are just less painful for others.

I have spoken to some fantastic people on mn, some on this thread and listening to their story's and hearing them say that one day things well seem better gives me hope that one day I will be able to look at my other children again and feel joy along side the sadness that Jacob cannot be here with us.

I hope that this will be the case for both of us xx

I'm glad they listened to you at last. I hope you can talk to your bereavement midwife.

How old is DD1? She will obviously pick up on your distress, and be unsettled by lots of visitors, but you are clearly doing all you can to be there for her and reassure her. It's not necessarily a bad thing for children to see adults cry- it can help to give them permission to express their feelings too.

Everything you are going through is part of normal healthy grieving. The numbness helps to protect you from feeling the full intensity of the pain in these early days.

Moomin I really hope that too - for us both xx

GRW DD1 is 16 months old.

I feel really, really panicky. I went mad trying to find my TEDS, as my fragmin injections finished today, and I had a 'dent' in the front of my lower leg... I'm just so worried about that. It is dark again, and I'm beginning to panic about my blood pressure, whether my kidney infection will get worse, whether my legs feel funny, worrying about feeling dizzy - I'm just so worried, yet in the day I don't worry. I can even feel palpitations - and they told me to go in if I had them - yet I'm too scared to go back to hospital... the fear is so bad that I push DH away if he tries to hug me, as I'm scared.

I worry as I'm older (41) and overweight - both of which scare me, as does the knowledge that both those things put me in a high-risk category for stillbirth - so it's my fault, although I was healthy throughout the pregnancy, and Tamsin was growing fine on the charts.

karma, there is a big difference between being in a high-risk group and it being your fault. There are lots of young, skinny women whose babies don't make it to term, they are not to blame and neither are you!

I am not a mental health expert by any means but I do think your team seem a bit OTT about your dd1 possibly becoming depressed? I have had 5 C-sections and for three of them had a slightly older child who had gotten used to being picked up and none of them has ever shown signs of being depressed about it. I have always explained that Mammy has a sore tummy and tried to make up for it in cuddles. It won't be long before you have physically recovered and can pick her up again.

The mental and emotional recovery is of course different. I only lost Sylvie-Rose a month ago so can't tell you much about the long-term effects but can tell you that I have met some wonderful ladies both on MN and in RL who have been bereaved a long time and are still carrying on with their lives and taking pleasure in the little things again. I won't lie to you, I have had days when I have felt like I am just waiting to die myself, not suicidal, but feeling as if there is no more colour to my life and that it's all spoilt and nothing like it would have been had she lived.

But we can't live like that and I have found that I have drawn strength from my sons and from dh, from knowing that she is still with me, although I can't see her.

You WILL find the strength within to carry on, I know you will!

chip thank you so much.

I feel a bit of a pain posting on here, when you've all gone through the same thing.

I won't lie to you, I have had days when I have felt like I am just waiting to die myself, not suicidal, but feeling as if there is no more colour to my life and that it's all spoilt and nothing like it would have been had she lived.

That is exactly how I feel chip, exactly. It's funny how the way you feel (which I feel I must be the only one), is actually really a common feeling. I truly know now that you have to go through this loss to understand it, no amount of empathy can ever get close.

Thank you so much for making me feel less alone xx

The funny thing about humans is how alike we all are at the end of the day. We mostly have different experiences but when we do have the same experiences, it's amazing how familiar it all seems when someone else describes it.

Hello there

I've been reading this thread on and off since I last commented on it but I've name changed since I first wrote something and I've been in hospital on and off so I haven't piped up much.

I just wanted to tell you it will get easier. I know that sounds impossible now. I know you probably don't want it to get better as much as you are frightened that it never will. The pain makes it real, makes your baby feel like they are still with you and you are holding them close.

It's been six years, one month and three days for me. I don't feel suffocated with grief anymore, firstly. I'm sad. I'm so sad, I don't have words to tell you how sad I am, but it is ok. I can live.

I wanted to throw my life away. I really did. I was a total fucked up mess after it happened. I wanted to turn back time so fiercely that I could have torn off my arms and ripped out my eyes. I felt like my will to turn the clock back could smash the world to bits.

But it didn't. After a lot of gray blank days and a lot of red angry days, I accepted that she wasn't coming back. That I was left to carry on by myself. But I had to live for her. I thought of my own mother. I wouldn't want to tear her life apart by me dying. I would want her to be happy, even if I was gone. My daughter would want the same for me. If I had thrown my life away, then what was the point of my precious daughter's existence? I didn't want her to have existed to have brought pain and suffering on the world. I had to go on, to live, to make her life worth something.

So I'm in tears now writing this and the hurt is still with me but over time I have learnt to be comforted by the knowledge that my little girl would be proud of me. That i've faced a wall of fire and walked through it and been burnt to pieces and kept on walking and smiled again.

I know it sounds impossible. I know you can't smile and you can't laugh. But one day you will. And it will be your baby living in your heart smiling too.

It's not going to happen tomorrow. It's not even going to happen soon. But time takes everything away from everyone. Time took our babies away. Time will take the pain to a distant, easier place. One day, time will take us all away, so as cruel as it, we have to go on and live while we are here on this earth.

Our babies would want the best for us and somehow we can find the strength to do the best for ourselves.

hi karma how are you feeling now

Shirley sorry for your loss, your words made me cry but they also gave me comfort and hope xx

Thank you both xx

Yesterday I coped a little better. We went out to look at flowers for the funeral, and apart from a wobble at the florists, it seemed better.

Today has changed again. I woke up realising that Tamsin would be born now - if she'd just held on for two weeks.....

I'm angry with the professionals. I had a rash - petechiae (sp), which is bruising under the skin - like meningitis rash. It was on my neck and started to go up m face & was gradually getting worse. My midwife was the first to notice it, and made me an appointment with the GP. They just ordered some blood-tests, but said it was not connected to the pregnancy.

The blood-tests revealed a very high ESR level - which is somethng to do with inflammation, but the Dr wasn't concerened - just that I still had anaemia.

The rash disapperared the day after delivery - the little bruises began to fade, and have now completely disappeared - they have no idea what it was (it did look awful). Of course it must have been related to the pregnancy.

Similarly I was terrified of stillbirth with this pregnancy. I posted about it (under a different name) on the pregnancy forum - I was terrified that I did have gestational diabtete, I was terrified when the PFI doppler was on the low percentage & pestered both GP, midwife and consulltant about it, and they commented in my notes about my concerns, and that although the doppler was on the low side of normal (around 5th percentile) it was normal, and the baby was growing OK.

I was always smaller than I was in previous pregnancies, and the last two weeks the fundal height didn't change.

Finally the AFI level fell from the 75th centile, to the 10th centil that has to be wrong, I did go mad about it, but the consultant said it was in normal levels - regardless - it was low for Tamsin - they should have checked why it fell so much - it was a sign & four days later she'd died...

I have the follow-up with the consultant in December. They want me to go to the antenatal department. I am furious at this - where I had the scans, where I was reassured everything was fine, where there are baby photos everywhere, where there will be happy pregnant women????

I cannot get understand why I'm not going to the gynae department (where my consultant also works), my sister went there for an ovarian cyst last month, why not meet me there, instead of such an emotive place?

On a personal level I'm struggling. I woke this morning to feel nothing for DH - I just want to run away from him and DD. I told her she was naughty - not in a horrible tone, she just laughed at me. I then told her to shut-up when she laughed. I know it's not her fault, but I just want to get away.

DH is calling my mum over to look after me & complains that I'm wallowing on here, and not tring to do anything else

I know I'm not fair expecting DH to do it all, & I'm so upset that I'm not the mum that DD1 deserves - it seems unfair that she should also suffer because I'm bereaved.

I'm also scared to love her, or anyone else, I've even pushed away my DS.

I'm still scared of DSS just turning up. I know we'd sorted it, but I asked DH to ring his DS and ask him not to book more than a couple of nights, and to make it clear that he cannot stop here... DH has not done this, he pacified me, but has now said that he will wait till DSS tells him how long he's booked the tickets for.

I feel so paralysed by it all.

I just want to leave everyone, to start again where no one knows me, to leave DH with DD & just go, I just want out of this

karma, you are not wallowing. You've lost a baby, any of us who have been through this know that it totally floors you.

For a short while after Sylvie-Rose died, I couldn't feel anything for ds3 and ds4. They would hug me and I would feel nothing. I felt dreadful, as if her death meant that I ceased to be a mother to them. I made myself hug them because it was my duty to do it, IYKWIM and I worried that they would be able to tell that I didn't want to.

But slowly, my feelings for them returned to normal or near-normal. Now, when I hug them, I feel my love for them and I draw comfort from it. Your feelings for dd1 will come back, hang in there!

I don't know what to say to try to help you.

All I can say is that what you are feeling I am too, I know if I'd demanded the mw check me with ds3 the cord wouldn't have prolapsed and my cervix wouldn't have been damaged.

I thunk if I'd kicked up more of a fuss when I was in hospital with ds4 and demanded to have seen a consultant as soon as I arrived instead of letting them fob me off for 4 hours they could have put a stitch in earlier and ds4 might have survived.

I think I will always live with the guilt, but I keep trying to believe that it isn't my fault, I would never have intentionally done anything to cause him harm.

You are not a bad mother and your dd would not be better off without you. I remember telling ds3 to shut up crying not long after Jacob died and also not wanting to look after him because it was just too painful. Over time that has changed and being with him is now helping me through.

I hope your mum coming will help, is she supportive? Maybe she can make your dh understand that he needs to sort out the issues with your dss

Thank you!

I felt a bit better after my mum came, and the midwife came and took my blood pressure, as I was really worried that it was high (the physical trauma I went through was quite severe - 37 hours of failed labour, a midwife who thought I should 'breathe' through the pain instead of having meds, then an emcs at 3am on the morning, in which my uterus had torn at the top & back, a heamorghing (sp) fibroid, a cut - not just along the usual line, but also right up the sides of my uterus - leading to the severing of the major blood vessels, a battle to stabilise my BP as I was awake, an emergency dash out of bed for the consulatant, as the surgeon was unable to stem the blood, hypovelmic shock - all followed by then seeing my much wanted, cherished & loved baby - who was dead.... They also took my womb out of my body to fix it, though I'm not sure what that was.

I'll admit I now have worries about my health - I worry that something is wrong with me... I'm a bit panicky that someone else I love will get hurt, I'm just a bit shaky.

Anyway unfortunately the crisis team pscyhiatrist (who I mentioned I'd had clashes with in the past), was told that I refused day hospital, and has now decided to call me in to be assessed. I refused to go - I can't believe they expect a woman - who's just had major surgery, to leave home & walk to a bloody hospital (NOT the day one, but the one for inpatients) for an assessment... and to be honest this has triggered a major panic attack.

They have now decided the psychiatrists will visit me at home. They also keep asking how I am coping with my daugther, and asked if I'm ever alone with her!!!!!!!!!!!!

My midwife has spoken to them saying I'm coping than a lot of other women have, and that she has no worries, but I'm obviously grieving my child. My GP has also said that it would be inappropriate for me to be anywhere but at home - and could actually harm my MH if forced with people with other mental problems (not sure why the crisis team think that grief is a mental illness). My CPN has also assured me that he thinks I'm not suffering from an acute mental illness at the moment, and is happy for me to be at home.

My worry is the psychiatrists that are coming out are very keen on medications - when I had a breakdown before they gave me olanzapine, and the effect it had on me was awful - I got more confused.

I don't want to take anything they prescribe. Sure I'm in hell with my feelings, but I'm sure that medicatiing my feelings away will not help - it will just prolong the inevitable, and also make Tamisn's funeral a blur, and I want to write a poem for her - which I cannot when taking antipsychotics - surely I'm not psychotic, so why take the bloody things?

I am scared as two of them are coming, that they are considering sectioning me, if a social worker turns up it's more likely - I'm scared that I'll miss my Tamsin's funeral - and in that case I will go mad - I'll feel like stabbing them for taking away my last goodbye.

I'm also highly concerned that they think I shouldn't be alone with DD1 - what the hell do they think - that I'd hurt her?