How do I stop smacking?

[2ashamed]

I know this is a controversial subject, and I have changed my name because I am so ashamed of myself

I was smacked as a child, though not excessively, but because I have a terrible temper, I swore I would never smack my children. I am really anti-smacking, but I don't want this to dissolve into a debate about the pros and cons. I genuinely want advice.

I just find that I react, not often - usually when I'm tired or flustered. And I hate myself when I do it. It's just that this is what my role-models did and I'm finding it very difficult to break away from that. I know I am the only one responsible for my actions, and 99% of the time I can take a deep breath and pause before reacting. But how can I avoid just reacting the rest of the time??? Any ideas, please?

2ashamed - I haven't read through all the replies so I am sorry if I am repeating much of what has already been written but your message really struck a chord with me. I am currently receiving counselling through the Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS)for similar issues. I also had an upbringing that included being smacked (sometimes quite prolonged and vicious) and I also was adamant that I wouldn't be the same with my own children. About a year ago I was finding it increasingly difficult to cope with my son's completely normal 4 year old behaviour, i.e. being disobedient, cheeky, rude, having to be told repreatedly to do things etc. I had also just given birth to our second child. Every day I found myself shouting at him for something or other which led, eventually, to me getting tense just knowing he was going to be around. He was at mursery every morning and I would dread having to pick him up at lunchtime as his mere presence would irritate me. Obviously my behaviour towards him was echoed, tenfold, in hos behaviour towards me and the situaton escalated out of control where by the end of it I was physically abusing him. By this I mean I smacked him, pushed him around, threw him on his bed. I wouldn't repeatedly hit him it would just be the once but I still have no excuses for my behaviour. Eventually I spoke to my Health Visitor about it who referred me to CAMHS. I started sessions about 6 months ago and I can honestly say they have been my godsend. The main lesson I have learned is that if I behave badly then my son will do so too. I also react worse when I am tired or suffering with PMT. Basically when my defences are low. Something that my counsellor has told me is that anger is a very base instinct that stems from the oldest part of the brain. Apparently the chemical reactions that go on when people are angry are often the same as when doing something pleasurable (like sex!) which is why if you are prone to angry outbursts you find it very diffciult to control it as sub-consciously you find it pleasurable. Does this make sense? This is why it is very difficult to control. One of the things that I discussed with my counsellor, this week in fact, is that when I do lash out at my son (usually verbally now and not physically) I feel the need to show him my displeasure and that taking myself away from the situation doesn't allow me to fulfil what I want which is to show him how angry I am. I'm sorry if this is not making any sense at all. I feel like I've rambled on for ages about this without offering any constructive advice. What I can say is please speak to your health visitor about it and see if they can point you in the right direction. I appreciate that one of the hardest things to do is to admit to things like this but believe me h.v. have seen and heard alot worse and that is what they are there for. You can break out of the cycle but you must be prepared for this to take time. You have had a lifetime of reacting in a particular way it is not going to change overnight. Think about it this way. If you always get dressed every morning in a particular order, try doing it another way every day for the rest of your life. At first you will have to consciously to do it but eventually it will become an unconscious thing. A flippant example but I hope you get the picture.

Good luck.
Debster x

I really don't see that it's so problematic that you behave differently in different environments. Just because you try to enforce a bit of quiet in a library or museum (!) doesn't mean you have to also impose quiet when a child is in the park. It's just a question of being consistent. As long as I am bigger than ds and capable of physically moving him away from danger etc, I don't see any need to hit him - and by the time he's bigger than me, I don't see myself doing it either
The most beautifully behaved children I know aren't smacked. I think that's simply untrue that children who aren't hit grow up to be more unruly. I strongly suspect that most of the youths around here causing trouble/spraypainting etc were clouted all their childhoods (I see that often enough too, sadly).
I feel very much like KS on this point. I DO remember being smacked for not very much - and I particualarly resented being smacked because my parents were feeling hassled. Interrupting a phone conversation does not deserve a slap IMO. I'm sorry but I feel quite emotional about smacking. I feel quite tearful sometimes when I see very young children being slapped pretty hard for nothing (in a way that I'm sure people here aren't doing) - I'd LOVE to be able to call the police but it isn't a crime - yet!

OK - so how many people here would call the police or intervene if they saw someone smacking a child when it's illegal?

Message withdrawn

I have told a mother to "calm down, you're hurting him" I know that it was none of my business but she was dragging the poor lad (I think about 3) along by the elbow and every so often hitting his legs.

I did find this cruel, but just for a single smack that wasn't hard no I say if you think that's just then just get on with it, but rough treatment that's another matter.

Oh yes all I got for my trouble was a torrent of abuse and a general mind your own business which I expected to be honest.

Message withdrawn

I bet she stopped hitting the child though didn't she Jenie? So you actually accomplished more than just an angry reaction.

I agree about the terminology, Bloss. I didn't the first time I read your post - thought that calling 'smacking' 'hitting' was just calling a spade a spade. But you are quite right, we do need to distinguish between the calm, well thought out punishment and the act of sheer frustation and anger. So, sorry if part of my post offended.

It's a poor day you don't learn something new on Mumsnet!

It is typical that some parents argue that their "smacking" is different. It is done out of love. I have heard that argument so many times. Well done for Debster in recognising that she needed help to cope with her child. I don't think the rest of you should just dismiss what she is saying because "your smacking is thougthtful and loving".

Batters, I think you answered your own question about the difference between smacking and hitting when you draw the distinction between "a controlled form of discipline" and "hitting us out of annoyance / frustration".

I agree that smacking a child must make it harder to teach that physical violence is wrong. A blanket ban is much easier to explain. But then, my children do not have the right to discipline anyone else in any way. My sons cannot give each other timeouts - it is a privilege that their parents have for the purpose of teaching them the right thing to do. So we all have to teach our children to distinguish between different contexts.

The entire idea behind punishment is for it to be a deterent. But if the child doesn't care about the punishment (time out/no sweets etc),then how effective is it? I don't believe violence is the answer, but I do believe it is sometimes necessary to have the THREAT of violence available. That means you need to follow through occasionally.

It is very foolish to confuse child beating with the occassional smack. REsponsible parents who smack do so for a short, sharp immediate shock. They do not hurt their child, mark or bruise them or break the skin. This kind of behaviour is totally different. Lets not tar parents who smack with the same brush as parents who abuse.

Spanking/smacking = this will hurt me more than it hurst you

child abuse = venting rage on child, enjoying causing physical harm on a regular basis

I don't see any messages dismissing Debster. I think it was very brave of her to seek help and even braver to post here about it.

Fairymum, do you really think that a calmly delivered (and deserved) punishment that is clearly explained to the child and even warned about can equate with the explosion of anger that Debster so frighteningly described?

I do see the distinction too. I do think that if a parent happens to smack their child once or twice in their lives because they were tired, over-stretched or the child perhaps scared the parent by doing something dangerous - then apologise to the child and move on. Forgive and forget. It happened. We are all humans. Initially I thought that was what we were discussing. I now see that many of you use smacking as a form of discipline. I am quite shocked as I really thought those parents were far and few between nowadays.

I would love to know what age your kids are when you smack them and what do you consider "bad behaviour". Some of the things listed here are things which wouldn't even annoy me. I would just take it as part of living with a 2 year-old.......

Well, what do you punish your children for Fairymum?

At two, my boys would have had a time out if they deliberately hurt anyone (unless it was in self-defense). They would also sometimes have got a warning and then a time out if they didn't do what they were told to do.

Of course we all discipline our children in some way. My question is what kind of behaviour justifies a smack. As far as I can see people are writing that they only use the occasional smack when the behaviour is particularly bad. Examples of particularly bad behaviour has so far been disturbing you while on the phone, not staying in bed and irritating behaviour in restaurants/supermarkets. To me this is perfectly normal toddler behaviour.

The only thing that I 'punish' for is biting, because it can really hurt another child. I don't think my ds is wicked for doing it, he really doesn't understand, so I put him outside the door which he hates. I don't wait for him to calm down or insist he apologise or anything, just show him that when he bites, something quite unpleasant happens. For other minor misdemeanors (er, can'[t think of many, actually offhand, I ignore him completely. Don't even make eyecontact. As nearly all 'bad' behaviour at this age is for your attention (which I strongly suspect the bed bouncing is BTW, though obviously I'm not in your house so can't be certain) that works very, very well for me. Takes nerves of steel though! Otherwise I just take the object away - eg if he's hitting the wooden cupboards with his zylophone beater and it's denting the paintwork and say, 'No, darling, we don't hit the cupboards." I just HATE fighting with my ds, it really makes me sad. Did anyone see the programme on TV with the dog whisperer? There were a lot of extremely badly behaved mutts on there and she used such simple, gentle techniques with them - very consistent, lots of ignoring bad behaviour and praising good and plenty of rewards (star chart principle!) and it always worked. I honestly remember taking tips from that for handling ds BTW I really don't understand those who disapprove of star charts. Why shouldn't good behaviour be rewarded?

My son is 23 months and I don't expect him to do as he is told. I don't think I'm crazy softheaded mum, but I just don't. I hope he will cooperate with me, but I don't expect him to obey, mainly because I think he's rather young to get the concept. I am very confident that as he gets older I will be able to ask him things and he will do them. I don't see 'defiance' in him, just babyness.

FairyMum, I think bringing up Apple2 and her phone call slap was unfair. She acknowledged that she acted out of frustration and that she was in the wrong. She has taken steps to find a better way for herself and her children and I think she should be congratulated and thanked for being so brave to admit to a past failing here.

As far as I can tell, everyone here who uses smacking is using it as the ultimate deterrent. No one here has described it as a flippant daily occurance. Also I don't think you can assume that all the children being discussed here are toddlers. If my five year old behaved like a 'normal toddler' he'd hear all about it!

Agree with you about the rewards Aloha. My guys get a jellybean in a jar everyday that they are well behaved and if they have seven beans at the end of the week, they get their pocket money.

My first line of punishment would, I suppose, be a verbal correction.
That would get escalated to an expression of serious displeasure.
Next stage - no jellybean.
Ultimate deterrent - time out.

Well, it works for us. And isn't that the whole point? That we're all different and so are our kids.

Aloha - it's not that I don't agree with star charts, but personally I wouldn't use one. My friends who do use them tend to reward what they call 'good behaviour' but I would call it 'behaviour I expect on a day to day basis'

My son doing as he is told all day is what I expect, and I want him to know that this is the norm. Anything over and above this in my book is good behaviour, and is rewarded.

"I am very confident that as he gets older I will be able to ask him things and he will do them."

You can be equally confident Aloha that he will deliberately not do them.

Every child has to push the boundaries. It's important for their development.

I always liked John Cleese's description of the need for discipline - imagine you are in a completely dark room. I mean, you can't see anything. You put out your hand and you feel nothing. You move a little and put out your hand again and still nothing. You start to feel uneasy, disoriented. You move a little further and you feel a wall. Something solid. Something dependable. In a way this wall confines you and limits your freedom but in reality it allows you the security and confidence to explore that you didn't have when you were groping in the dark. That's discipline. And every now and a again, you'll go back and push that wall to make sure that it is still there.

When my youngest was two, he went through a phase of deliberately doing something wrong while watching my reaction. Actually, he was so obvious about it that it was hard not to laugh. But he would be so relieved when I gave him a time out and because it always happened, he stopped pushing.

Nerdgirl - I like it!

I guess we all have different walls!

Nerdgirl 1st yes she did stop hitting the young boy and 2nd I also loved your description.

Can I just ask if anyone else has ever said stop hitting your child?

Jenie, I'm ashamed to say that no I've never intervened on the few occasions that I've wanted to.

But I promise the next time it happens I'll think of you and that will shame me into doing it!

This thread illustrates how ineffective smacking can be as a form of discipline, where a mumsnetter found she had to increase the frequency and force of smacks to keep them effective. Eventually she found other, non-violent, ways to dsicpline her child, which worked much better.

One of the best arguments for not doing it, surely?