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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

580 replies

balanomorey · 24/09/2008 12:07

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

OP posts:
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mabel1973 · 29/09/2008 16:00

Balanomorey - i haven't read the whole thread but think you have received some good advice.
I totally sympathise, I have 2 ds's aged 4 and 2, DS2 is particularly demanding at the moment, he is what I would call a 'meddler', if there's something he can get his fingers into it (usually toilet brushes in public toilets, drains, the cats bum ) he will do and i find the constant, telling him to 'leave it' totally draining and find myself losing it with him regularly.
However when DS1 was a similar age I posted on MN and got the best advice i have ever been given and it has stayed with me. It is that toddlers very much reflect your behaviour, so she tantrums...you tantrum, it escalates and all hell breaks loose. If You stay calm, you remain in control.
I know how hard it is to stay calm, when you feel like exploding...take a deep breath, walk away if necessary, count to 10 and the distraction technique is always a good one to fall back on.
Good luck x

subster · 29/09/2008 16:03

I've just picked up this thread & cant believe how much of it applies to me. I've never had the guts to talk to anyone about how frustrated & angry i get with my ds who's only 21 months.
As soon as a fly off the handle i know i'm doing wrong but cant help it then immediately feel guilty & start crying.The past few wks have been improving because i am making a conscious effort.
I'm constantly aware that he will start following my behaviour which isnt what he needs-I need to set an example but just knowing that there are others out there who are experiencing the same has been a huge relief.
I've already jotted down all the books mentioned & am heading to the library tomorrow.

Well done for Balanomorey for startiing off this 'painful' thread

mabel1973 · 29/09/2008 16:10

Subster..totally agree. i think the wake up call is when you see your behaviour reflected in theirs and you realise that alot of their 'bad' behaviour has been picked up from you. It is quite shocking.

I have have shouted at my DS's because they've shouted at me totally ridiculous. I guess it's true we learn by example.

balanomorey · 29/09/2008 18:11

Oh Mimi - no offence taken! - just felt a bit guilty that I may had put dh in a bad light!! Agree - yah, boo, sucks to some of the books for making us feel useless under difficult circumstances . x.

OP posts:
queribus · 29/09/2008 20:05

Thank you so much for starting this thread - it could be me!!

Since my DS was born 12 weeks ago I've become a real 'toxic parent' to my DD (3yo) and made all sorts of excuses for my anger and frustration - tiredness, baby blues etc. - but the hard truth is that my tantrums are often worse than DD's!

Like you, Balano, I had a particularly bad day involving lots of shouting, slamming doors and incredibly bad behaviour (from me), and I realised that things had to change.

Like others on the thread, it's a relief to know that there are others out there feeling the same and that there is a way forward. My expectations are far too high of both DD and DS and I spend too much time worrying about what others think about my children and my parenting.

Keep posting!

lizandlulu · 29/09/2008 20:24

do you know what i cant stand? its people who say everything is brilliant, perfect and their kids are wonderful and perfectly behaved, get into routine straight away and sleep from day one.

even if my dd was like this i would tell other people she was, because it makes people like me feel bad and that i am doing something wrong.

i have a friend who has a dd of 2 nad a half and a ds about 5 months. i dont see her often but when i do, she gushes how easy she finds parenting and how wonderful and brilliant her children are. her dd was walking a 9 months and talking really well vry early

well good for her.i underdtand people are proud of thier kids but why push it down others throats when i have already told you my dd doesnt sleep well or cant talk well or doesnt do anything as good as your dd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rant over

(i also know through a friend of the friend that her mother has both kids at least 2 nights a week and several times during the day, no wonder she finds it easy)

katiek123 · 30/09/2008 11:17

tell me about it lizandlulu - i had a whole raft of friends and acquaintances i had to avoid for about 3 years straight bcs they made me feel SO-O-O-O-O inadequate, ashamed, guilty and just plain cross!!! exactly as you say - why can't these gushing, doting, life-is-so-perfect, my-child-is-more-like-a-best-friend-i-enjoy-hanging-out-with-than-anything-else types just bloody well LIE?!

katiek123 · 30/09/2008 11:34

by the way girls, this is a very Nice and Supportive Thread is it not, as has been mentioned by others? i say this bcs am quite new to mumsnet and went on a couple of other threads recently which really shocked me with their judgmentalism and competitive-mummyness - i thought 'yikes' and tiptoed out of there fast!!i'm lucky my main experience so far has been on this one or i would have given up for good! it's a bloody fraught business this parenting thing all in all, isn't it!

lizandlulu · 30/09/2008 12:20

i see this friend about once a month, but everytime i do, her dc's can do something new and better than mine.

i am this close to telling her i dont care

lizandlulu · 30/09/2008 12:23

there are soem people on mumsnet who will tell you what they think, regardless of your feelings.

a couple of weeks ago i was told i was still talking utter crap.

well maybe i was but it was my opinion and she didnt like it

katiek123 · 30/09/2008 14:23

yikes, again. if i was at the receiving end of that sort of comment and i was in the wrong frame of mind ie already feeling inadequate, low and anxious, i would certainly burst into tears!! and never come near the site again! now my kids are a little older (they're 7 and 5) i am in a much better place - as are they - but at the 4 and 2 stage, for instance, i was FRAGILE and i am sure that applies to a lot of people on this site. big shame. Not Necessary!

keevamum · 30/09/2008 14:45

Just had to add my support balanomorey. I have a 2.4 year old DD and she is 'spirited' too. I think in response to one of your earlier posts you definitely need to revise your mantra. When your child is spirited you can not hope for an 'easy' life. Instead hope for a happy life because I don't think it will ever be easy!

Having said that there are a few things which make life simpler. Definite clear boundaries which also mean following through any threats, so think very carefully before you issue them. The naughty step never worked with my eldest DD but has been a godsend with DD2, she will often stop any naughty behaviour just by being threatened with the naughty step....a good bedtime routine and enough sleep is essential. Finally try taking advantage of her determination by finding an activity she'll love such as swimming or gymnastics because that determination is what potential champions are made of!!

Seriously I think it's also important to view it as a positive trait, obviously hard to see at the moment but as they get older I can see my DD being able to do anything if she puts her mind to it, unlike my eldest DD who was an agelic child but she really doesn't have that tenacity about her character that DD2 has and could as a consequence get walked over if not careful. Good luck.

BigBadMousey · 30/09/2008 14:46

I'm just posting on here so I know where to come back when I have more time.

I too am amazed no one has come in and suggessted you should all be lined up and shot for not being super-tolerant wondermums like them

Good luck to everyone.

lizandlulu · 30/09/2008 15:24

one of the best bits of advice i was given was dont keep thinking when is my life going to get back to normal, because from now on this is normal.

but, god, how i look forward to the rare days when dh has dd for the day and i cna go shopping on my own

MorocconOil · 30/09/2008 18:59

katiek, I know what you mean about some of the competitive mummy stuff on here. Some people can sound so assertive and 'sorted' and can make you feel a bit inadequate about your parenting 'stylee'. I have at times felt judged as uncaring and harsh with my DC.

I suppose the thing is we are only dealing with words, and the real people don't shine through the written word.

I have also been thinking about the 'spirited child' since coming on this thread. My 3 DC could probably all be described as this. They are now 9,7 and 3 and have been such hard work at times. Both physically and emotionally draining. At times I have been completely with my friends and acquaintances with calm, compliant DC. However now they are getting older, I am so proud that my DC are so self-confident, always willing to try something new and ooze independence. They are also developing a strong sense of empathy.

They can still be difficult, DD is just at the start of a willful stage, but I would not have them be any different to the way they are.

I still think it's ok to have a moan about them though.

katiek123 · 30/09/2008 20:24

good post mimi! i just got back from DD's karate class where she absolutely kicks ass!! it's been fantastic to see her channel that determination, obsessive precision, strength of character and, yes, spirit into shining at something like that. and it's absolutely true that spirited kids may wear us down, but are NEVER boring and will be truly exceptional adults. have you ever noticed how other people's children seem a little, er, bland in comparison? now, i have LONGED for 'bland' on many occasion, but ultimately i realise that spirit is to be celebrated - that's if i am still alive to (weakly) wave my little flag at her graduation/wedding/ prime ministerial inauguration!!!
i would love to see more independence and empathy in my little fiery kid - great that you see those coming through in yours.

agree completely with keevamum's sentiment that we've completely HAD it as far as an easy life is concerned, but that happiness is not therefore an impossible goal! also that sleep and routine essential for these kids - much more than for the average child, in my experience.

lizandlulu - re the shopping alone thing - feel for you!! i was on my knees, nearly literally, until mine went to school, and now life has been transformed. even though i work, i make DAMN SURE i have windows of time ENTIRELY TO MYSELF, even it it's just the odd couple of hours - i look back at years gone by and think - i earned them!! so i explain (vigorously!) to my other half, anyway!!

balanomorey · 01/10/2008 10:42

Hi all
Didn't manage to get on yesterday - hectic day!

So agree with all the posts about 'smug mummy friends'. I too have one who is lovely and has a heart of gold, but is so smug sometimes, i could slap her!!!

Her dd is 6 weeks older than mine, so it's been hard not to compare. You can bet your bottom dollar if I'm venting about dd's negative behaviour, her dd will be doing the opposite. So while my dd is supplying the dog with an endless supply of veg off her plate resulting in a dog with the trots and a constipated dd, her dd eats the bloody lot with knobs on!!! Hurrah, I'm so pleased for you, how wonderful it must be, but tell me in 6 weeks time, not straight away on the back of my dispair! Her timing is crap. I think next time I'll just comment that it's a good job my dd is negatively behaved as it compensates her dds impeccable behaviour and will restore equilibrium to the planet!!

But it grates, dosn't it - you don't need to hear it, you already beat yourself up enough about it without having your nose rubbed in it ..but you are right keeva and katie, it is a blessing to have a spirited child - never a dull moment!! DD loves singing and dancing - maybe I should enrol her in stage school!

Quiribus and Keeva - welcome on board. How refreshing this is to know we all feel the same.

Have been trying really hard with dd this week. The more I've been thinking about it and analysing her, the more I've come to realise how my behaviour is impacting and how much I have to change. She is hiding her face every time I say no or tell her off now (not shouty telling off, by the way, just the normal need-to-say stuff). I keep instilling how much I love her and adore her so hopefully, she understands. To keep anger under control, when I feel it brewing (sounds daft) I count to 10 and imagine 5 balloons with the letters of the word ANGER on each one and in my imagination I pop them to dispurse my anger - I will keep working on it!! The only times this week I've let myself down is when I've snapped because my back is hurting. Not her fault, but have had back pain since in my teens and it's not too good since yesterday. She was being feeble about getting in the car this morning, so have her a helping hand - which made my back hurt. So got a bit narky with her for not getting in the car like she normally does. This is something I really have to work on as I get so frustrated when my back 'goes' and I do take it out on my nearest and dearest - not right, as it's not their fault
Good luck all x.

OP posts:
blueshoes · 01/10/2008 11:14

mimizan: 'Both physically and emotionally draining. At times I have been completely with my friends and acquaintances with calm, compliant DC. However now they are getting older, I am so proud that my DC are so self-confident, always willing to try something new and ooze independence. They are also developing a strong sense of empathy.'

I love what you say. But I can just about see how my 'spirited' dcs (oldest is 5) will turn out ... and it looks very much like your description.

Balanomorey, hopefully you have something to look forward to as well. If not, perhaps there is a special place in heaven for parents of spirited (and non-sleeping) children. Your dd sounds most creative and problem-solving. Who wants mindless compliance

MorocconOil · 01/10/2008 14:29

Blueshoes, My two older DC are still spirited and challenging. They often won't take no for an answer, pushing me further and further over the edge. I used to feel bad about feeling hacked off with them. I have read this book which was recommended on MN; 'Maternal Ambivalence, Torn Apart' by Rozilla Parker. It really helped me to stop feeling bad, and realise my feelings are just normal.

I read this at the same time the DSs got their last school reports. DS1 was described as 'bright, humourous and charismatic', DS2 as having a 'very inquisitive nature and always asking questions about the world'.
I know for sure I would rather this than impeccable and compliant behaviour.
If you can ride the storm with spirited children , you are setting them up for life as independent and creative thinkers.

noonki · 01/10/2008 15:40

Balanmoney - I sympathise lots and lots and having just burst into tears after shouting at my 3 year old I think we have a lot of similar problems!

Rachelp73 makes some really good points.

My DS is very strong willed and I have found these tips really helpful:

  1. Ignoring his bad behaviour (unless he is hurting someone then I say 'no' and then give attention to whoever he has hurt and won't even look at him for about 2 minutes. I then take him aside and very quietly say... if you do X again I will take away your toy from you. Then leave it at that.

I know that if I shout or rant at him he will do it again and more often - but if I ignore it he gives up

  1. Praising his good behaviour - be it playing quietly by himself/eating a his dinner/sharing toys etc - star charts work wonders
  1. Whinging - I always say 'sorry can't understand you when you speak in that voice' until he says it normally
  1. Giving warning - I always say if you do this .. then this will happen (fighting over toys, I say either you two share or I will take the toy away)

5.Apologise - If I shout etc I always say sorry afterwards, and explain in simple terms why I was angry.

I shall now go and read my own advice, take a deep breath and have a cuddle with my little one

good luck it can be very hard x

noonki · 01/10/2008 15:41

Balanmoney - I sympathise lots and lots and having just burst into tears after shouting at my 3 year old I think we have a lot of similar problems!

Rachelp73 makes some really good points.

My DS is very strong willed and I have found these tips really helpful:

  1. Ignoring his bad behaviour (unless he is hurting someone then I say 'no' and then give attention to whoever he has hurt and won't even look at him for about 2 minutes. I then take him aside and very quietly say... if you do X again I will take away your toy from you. Then leave it at that.

I know that if I shout or rant at him he will do it again and more often - but if I ignore it he gives up

  1. Praising his good behaviour - be it playing quietly by himself/eating a his dinner/sharing toys etc - star charts work wonders
  1. Whinging - I always say 'sorry can't understand you when you speak in that voice' until he says it normally
  1. Giving warning - I always say if you do this .. then this will happen (fighting over toys, I say either you two share or I will take the toy away)

5.Apologise - If I shout etc I always say sorry afterwards, and explain in simple terms why I was angry.

I shall now go and read my own advice, take a deep breath and have a cuddle with my little one

good luck it can be very hard x

rachelp73 · 02/10/2008 00:03

I am loving reading this thread. After posting the other night, a memory from my own childhood came to me and I suddenly realised I wanted to add a further idea. When I was about 5 or 6 years old, I was at my sister's birthday party at home, and we were playing something like spin the bottle. Not sure if it was exactly that kissing game as we may know it (!) but it certainly involved someone being in charge of spinning a bottle in the middle of a circle of kids. The older kid from next door who was 12 or something was given that responsibility as she was oldest, but I wanted to have just 1 go at spinning it on one of the turns. Now, for some reason, my mum decided that she wouldn't let me. I think it was only because she already had someone else doing that job, and in her eyes, I just didn't need to do it. But I really really wanted to have a go, just 1 go, and just couldn't understand why she wouldn't let me. (as an adult, I STILL don't understand why she wouldn't let me, other than I guess she was the harrassed party hostess who was just trying to keep the game flowing).

Now, this whole memory has stuck with me for 30-odd years. I distinctly remember the gut-wrenching disappointment at my mum not understanding why it was so important to me to do it, and also the utter, utter unfairness at not being allowed to do a simple, quick thing. I went into a total emotional meltdown, I just felt so SAD......my dad had to take me upstairs as I was getting hysterical with crying and they just didn't "get" what I was getting upset about. It even got so far as them asking their neighbour for advice as I was beside myself with crying and as a nurse, she told them to slap me across the face once to shock me out of it. Well, as you can imagine, after the first metaphorical slap in the face of not being allowed to have a turn at spinning the bottle, to then get an actual slap across the face, I was a total mess.......I think the only thing that calmed me down in the end was my dad taking me and my friend out the house to get some crisps from the shop. The trauma of my feelings during that whole episode has stuck with me all my life and I'm sure it has helped in the parenting style I have with my own kids. I really try and put myself in my kids' position as much as possible, to UNDERSTAND their behaviour and reactions to situations. Sometimes it helps me to realise when I am being too harsh on them for a tiny misdemeanour (i.e. choose your battles - not everything is worth fighting over, is what I've learned from that).

But most of all, it has taught me to try and imagine how a toddler or a 4 year old thinks. Even if they are getting upset at something which seems trivial to ME, I try imagine how THEY are viewing it. For example, I try never to dismiss their concerns and tell them they are being silly if they are kicking up a fuss about something, as to them it might really, really matter! If they are moaning and getting in a state about something which really is out of my control eg. we are in a traffic jam in the car and they are getting restless and whingey, I really try and make a conscious effort to empathise with them and say "oooh yes, this is very annoying having to wait in this queue, isn't it? I wonder how long we'll have to wait here for, shall we have bets on when it'll start moving again blah blah", instead of just shouting "Oh will you just STOP moaning!". Usually I find that that sort of comment only serves to get their backs up and moan even more, and the whole thing escalates, but if they hear that you are actually acknowledging that they are feeling fed up, and agree with them, then it really calms the situation down. If you are still reading this v long post, Balanomorey, , then for example, in the situation you describe of your little girl getting angry at not being able to have her kinder egg cos the other choc bar had already been put through the till, then if you just try and imagine her disappointment, and say something like "oh no, that's a shame, isn't it, the man has already put it through the till so we'll have to put the kinder egg back. I know you really wanted the kinder egg, too. Never mind, though, as next time we need petrol we'll come here, hey, and buy a kinder egg then - how about that?"

I'm only taking your kinder egg thing as an example - I've been in lots of situations like it with my own kids, and just find the empathising thing mostly works, and just lets them feel you are on their side! Of course, I've had times with my two where they've just been in a shit mood and the "let's get it next time, would that be good?" type of thing is met with a "NOOOOO!!!!! I want it NOWWWW!", and then I've just had to accept that no amount of poncey empathising is going to calm them down and we just have to get out of there pronto!

On another point you make, I totally sympathise about your back pain contributing to your short temper. I've had severe back pain in the past for weeks on end and I know, it turns you into a different person, doesn't it? It is really, really depressing, the constant pain. I can totally understand you being short with your kids anyway ifyou're in pain, but especially if it's been made worse by having to lift your daughter cos she won't shift herself! The problem is, that you can try and explain to kids about if you're feeling ill or in pain or fed up or whatever till you're blue in the face, and the response you always seem to get is "Oh, really? Oh dear. Can I have my tea now?" Oh, yes, this bloody empathy business certainly isn't a reciprocal arrangement in our house. I've heard that kids don't really learn how to empathise properly till they're a lot older. It's really annoying that at the age my two are, they expect you to be supermummy 24/7 no matter how shit you tell them you are feeling.

Mimizan: "DS1 was described as 'bright, humourous and charismatic'". You are describing my DS2, age 2.5, to a T. It's only recently I've started to notice these fantastic things about him, as before now, his whingeing and constant need for attention overshadowed the good points of his personality. Slowly, slowly we are getting there......I honestly can't wait until he's a bit older and has more scope at nursery and school or clubs etc to really shine at last. I just think he's not naturally comfy in himself having to be a toddler, but somehow I have the feeling that he will really shine as he gets older.

rachelp73 · 02/10/2008 00:04

I am embarrassed at the length of that post.

Ignore me. I get like this - keyboard diarrhoea.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 02/10/2008 00:31

Oh, thank you for this thread!! I too am the haggard mother of a spirited 3 yo dd (as well as a 4yo and a 10mth old) and I too seem to morph into that shrieking harpy (especially when we are late for the school bus in the morning) At least I know my shouting doesn't seem to upset dd2 in the slightest- she just shouts back "DON'T SHOUT AT ME!!" dd1 was easier, because she always wanted to please us, so just being disappointed in her upsets her, but dd2 cares not a jot. She seems to have a shrug and a "So sue me" attitude which drives me crazy! I apologised to her the other day for shouting at her for messing about when she should have been trying to put her socks on (she put them on her hands instead- aargh!)and she seemed to find me apologising to her quite amusing- she asked me 3 times that day "Are you sorry you shouted at me, mummy?" Yeah, rub it in, why don't you!

The thing is, she is a real wee character, and very funny. dd1 comes through screaming that dd2 nipped her, so I call her, and she stamps past me, rolling her eyes, saying "OK, OK, I'm GOING to the naughty step!" She is very hard to discipline, and sometimes I am at my wits end with her. We have the "why it's wrong to hit/ scratch your sister, and she just rolls her eyes and says "Well, I've STOPPED now, haven't I? I'm not doing it NOW, OK?" Or she lies, blatantly, and while staring me straight in the eye: today for example "I DIDN'T bite her- I was just nosing her and my teeth got caught!" What do you do??? So I said "Biting is unacceptable in this house. AS is hitting and scratching and nasty behaviour in general. OK???" And she said "But what about nosing?" AARGH!

Must read some of these books you all mention!

rachelp73 · 02/10/2008 00:49

{grin] at your DD2, JoolyJoo. My DS1 is the same as your DD1. Maybe second-borns are always superconfident, self-assured, difficult things? I can sooooo see my 2 year old doing the things you're describing this time next year.......

oh dear, addicted again....off to bed.