Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

[balanomorey]

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

Balanomorey, This has really made me think - "I want an easy life" - me too! I feel that things were SO shit in the past and then I went through something difficult a couple of years ago that I DESERVE for things to be easier now. I've had my fair share of crap! So I get angry/despairing/anxious if things get too difficult now because I don't want to go through anything like what I've gone through before, I've had enough!

The fact is though, it is not as bad now and it isn't realistic to go from one extreme to the other ie have NOTHING difficult to deal with now because you had so much in the past. Everyone has it hard sometimes and we still will but it hopefully won't get as bad as before.

I wouldn't waste good chocolate by throwing it away . I must admit I don't think I would have been that drastic. I think I would have said "You stop crying or you won't have this one either, you will have nothing" "Do you want me to put this one away (so I can eat it later ha ha)?", "No?, well stop crying then".

I think when they are this young, making a threat/consequence which isn't immediate eg "when you get home" you are going on the naughty step, won't have much impact, it has to be something you can do now eg put the chocolate in your bag and not let him have it.

I kind of store up 'punishments' in my head for what I can use if the kids are naughty instead of shouting/hitting/letting them get away with it. Eg. strap DS in pushchair for a few mins, send DD upstairs to play on her own for 5 mins, take the toy they are playing with away, give something nice if they do the right thing (I use sweets a lot - blatant bribery and I don't care!), withold it if they don't, take the child into another room on their own away from their friends for a few mins if they can't play nicely.

Sometimes it doesn't have to go as far as a punishment eg you could say "What you should say is Thank you Mummy (in jolly voice) and then I will give you this chocolate and it will be lovely" Sometimes this works and they stop being horrible, if not proceed to punishment - I should call it 'consequence' if I'm being modern and acceptable shouldn't I.

Look at me sounding all patronising and know it all! I do these things if I am feeling in a good mood and not tired or ill on a good day. When I'm having a bad day I just feel I don't have the will power and lose it like normal people!

That book sounds good Tolimbo.

RachelP - thanks so much for the time you took to write such a constructive and helpful post. i have taken on board your points and agree I handled it all wrong and can see that with analysis and hindsight now. My problem is, i suppose, I haven't really formulated good discipline practices yet to the point that I can handle these outbursts. I am aware my approach is very inconsistent - like Acting says, some days, it's just too much hassle. I also have a tendancy to threaten punishments that I can't (or don't want to) withdraw...like I will threaten not to go to a friend's house, but I'm desparate to go to get us out of the house for a few hours!!!...so won't carry out the threat. All this is said in the heat of the moment out of desparation - it's not well formulated or consistent. Also agree that I must ignore other people and just concentrate on sorting the situation without feeling embarassed - that's my problem and I hate attention and I need to deal with it. Like the idea of punching the pillows you are right - better to do it in private, don't want dd upset again .
Tomliboo - yes, she is my first (and probably last!!) and she is spoiled as she gets so much attention. you are so right about treating them as little adults - it is so easy to lose sight of the fact they are little kids and we become skewed in our assessment of their abilities. I do need to give her a break . Will check out the book, looks good
Acting - sorry you've had shitty times too. Know exactly what you mean about feeling as tho you 'deserve' an easy time - but you are right, life isn't like that, is it? We need to accept our lots, deal with it, move on from the crap. Thanks for the advice re storing up punishments that aren't of the shouty type - like the idea of that and will start on my list now! yes, it did grieve me the chuck the choc - it was quite a hard thing to do!!!
Thanks to all again for posting.x

balanomorey - when i was at your stage i was in a continual state of utter stress, suppressed anger, bewilderment and a feeling of 'this is NOT how life is supposed to be' pervaded my every waking hour! IT GETS BETTER! my kids are 7 and 5 now, both at school, i have more time and therefore energy to deal with them, we are all happier, and we are getting there AT LAST. but i promise you i was every bit as down on myself and negative and low at your stage, and still can be when things are bad. i promise it gets better. 'raising your spirited child' was my bible - still the only childcare book that ever helped me. my daughter has always been very intense, exceedingly demanding, whiny, tantrum-prone and contrary. every situation you can describe i have been through believe me. i have had days when i have wondered why the hell i ever had kids. there is a chapter heading i still remember in 'spirited child' which goes something along the lines of 'letting go of your dream child' that i wept buckets over!! but but but ...back to the present... she is still difficult but loads more controlled and self-aware, and her (many!) positives shine through a lot more. 'spirited child' helped me understand her more, feel less alone and feel much more positive about her qualities - see that there is an upside to every (considerable) downside of their behavioural/character traits. the other thing that helped was going on a parenting course, though i was in oz at the time where such things are totally normal, everyone goes on them, whereas i came into it in uk-mindset mode thinking everyone was there bcs they had major problems (as i perceived myself to have) - not so - somehow i felt worse therefore!!but the advice was excellent. it was the PPP programme and is getting rolled out in some parts of the uk, or so i read.
chin up. i totally agree that you need some time for YOU, that is when things looked up for me, when i finally got time to remember who i was and to re-energise myself. calm time just for you is crucial during these difficult times.
and - i am quite sure you are a GREAT mum. it's obvious from how and what you write. good luck!

tomliboo - fascinating book - i wanna read it NOW. rings v true already.

can i just add that (of course) my daughter was indeed my first-born and that a lot of what's just been said rings true for me too - i was constantly having intense and over-her-head discussions explaining why this was wrong and the ins and outs of this and that - so, so wrong and a waste of time. not helpful. i wish i had been shorter and clearer in my explanations and in my sanctions too!

another thing i firmly believe is that too much CHOICE is creating a real problem in our kids - we all overdo the choice thing massively, i feel, whether to try to defuse tantrums (that was always one of my methods, read in many childcare manuals i might add) and i think in my daughter's case i have added unthinkingly to her stress and anxiety levels through giving her choices she wasn't up to making! just something i wanted to add.

Good posts Katiek! I agree too that it gets easier. 3 has always been a challenging age IME. I am much firmer and clearer with DC3 and agree about not giving too many choices. It's confusing for them. Can you give the author for 'Raising a Spirited Child'?

hey mimizan glad you agree the light's there at the end of the LONG tunnel!! 3 was the worst for us yes indeedy. the author's an american called mary sheedy kurci...um...(tries to get out of study to check book spine, handle falls off shut door, resigns self to climbing out of fortunately-ground-level window into dark country lane, hoping the front door is open so i can return to house and two sleeping children. sigh. DH away. wish me luck, if i never post again call the police. not that i digress or anything) back to more important matters - i think it's kurcinko or some such but it should flash up on google, she is a major yank publishing phenomenon and runs loads of workshops over there. off on my nocturnal adventure, byeee

Balanomory..your DD sounds like a clone of my DD1 who will be 3 on Boxing day.I work 4 days a week and come Friday which is supposed to be my qualidee time with both DD's Im knackered and unable to cope as well as I would like with DD1 who is also knackered from a week at cm's and acting up more than normal.Each and every Friday I lose it, and each and every Friday I feel dreadful.

I do speak to DD1 as if she's much older and more understanding than she is, because she can talk so eloquently for her age.I do forget she is not even 3 and expect too much of her.Lately things have been a bit better, because I have been consistently reminding myself 'she is only a baby, she is only a baby'.The less I shout and show im cross the less cross she gets, though I do still find it a struggle.

Its only now Ive seen some improvement that I realised jsut how stressed this whole situation has been making me.Which in turn has made the whole situation worse..

Not easy this is it?

I know how you feel. It's so awful when you lose the plot. I have just read 'Unconditional Parenting' by Alfie Kohn and it helped me change my general approach with my son so we're having less conflict (except tonight when I screamed like a fishwife at bathtime). It's worth a look. Good luck and I hope tomorrow is a better day.

KatieK, I've heard about the "Raising your spirited child" book before. I wish I'd known about it when DS2 was born - he was spirited from day 1. REALLY hard work, he has literally turned me grey and given me more wrinkles than I should have at my age through the neverending stress of looking after him . And was a total shock after my fairly easy-going and pleasant first son. It's lucky that his good points are REALLY good, and make up for his bad points, and I can honestly say that I love him just as much as my first. But I still tell people that if he'd have been born first, he would have been an only child, as I would have thought that ALL children are such hard work. And then I get all upset thinking that if things HAD turned out that way, I would forever be condemning myself as a bad parent, not able to cope, useless mother, thinking I'm doing everything wrong etc etc. I am just so glad that because of DS1 turning out so well-behaved and pleasant, I KNOW I am not a failure at disciplining - it's just that DS2 needs a lot more of it LOL! And his bad behaviour on the whole is not my fault, it is just the way he is. But it is sooooo draining having to consciously discipline in the right way without flying off the handle. He is slowly getting easier though.

Anyway, sorry for that ramble, I just wanted to ask if that book, the spirited child one, would be any use to me now my son is already 2 and a half? If too much of it is referring to babies and younger toddlers, then would it be a waste of money?

Oh, and KatieK, just the thought of reading "Letting go of your dream child" has already got me filling up.....

This is all quite normal, just make allowances, try not to get yourself stressed about keeping to "set" routines too much.
If you're late for nursery so what? At least then she would have done her business and you would have felt proud of her.
Just get down to her level and say to her you know that she wants to do things by herself but tell her also the things that she can't do YET because it's too dangerous.
My DD1 and DD2 went through this stage at around 2.10yrs and they were very bosy.
But the problem with shouting is that it does not get results and just pushes your blood pressure up!
The best thing to do is just walk away without saying anything and take some deep breaths and then come back in after 2 mins and see how far they have progressed when they are doing a task (dressing or on potty).
Try to praise your DC when she does something really well (don't go over the top) and ignore if possible any bad behaviour unless it's dangerous of course.
Shouting NEVER helps and just makes EVERYONE worse.

Am overwhelmed by the level of support I have had - thanks so much to you all
Katie - again a lovely inspiring post - must get a copy of the book - can relate to the 'dream child' bit and accept I must let go of that ideal - after all, dd is my cherished flesh & blood and, warts & all, would't swap her for the most angelic child on the planet, so why hanker after it - dosn't make sense, just a lot of wasted emotion. vital lessons learned:-

• Don't have unreasonable expectations of a little 3 yr old
• NEVER let dd witness a tantrum again
• Count to 10/punch a pillow/scream into the fridge - anything to avoid shouting at dd (will need work as it comes from nowhere *formulate effective discipline routines
• Don't give a monkeys about an audience when she tantrums *loads of praise and unconditional love
• Get the spirited child book - let go of the 'dream child' and accept the beautiful child I have been blessed with (even if she is bloody hard work)

The last few days have been better in that I have been trying the above and feel better for doing so = a calmer, happier mummy. Bought a Disney Princess Treasure Chest full of choc coins with all the Princesses on (which she adores) and have promised her a choc from the treasure chest at the end of each day if she has been a good enough girl - has been working . Onwards and upwards!! Thanks again to you all and for also not being judgemental. x.

damn, just lost a long-ish post, will have to summarise (probably you're breathing a sigh of relief i shall be briefer than is my usual tendency!)
1/ balano - judgmental - are you kidding - you are just articulating what many of us feel, as surely you realise by now!! we feel for you bcs we have been there and continue to be there too! plus we value your honesty. many don't talk as frankly about the not-so-nice aspects of parenting. i have had times not so very long ago when my daughter and i have sat on the kitchen floor bawling into each other's faces with me weeping 'i don't know what to do with you' and her weeping back (heart-breakingly and, i now think, accurately) 'yes but mummy it's not my fault'. argh!!! Not Ideal!!! thankfully a thing of the past (though roll on the teenage years!!)
2/ rachel - v nice response thank you! - my child is also not proving the most effective anti-ageing formula around, may i just sympathise there for a moment!! the spirited child book is great from toddler to way into secondary school age so go for it. i should add it isn't brilliant on specific management techniques as such, more a really reassuring and enlightening read on why our children behave the way they do. and i totally agree that my other child has reinforced my conclusion that some kids are just innately more challenging/negative/tricky than others. i have a much more mellow 2nd child who is a walk in the park compared to child number one!!
3/ balano - this is a bit of a new-agey way to end but these challenging moments/children stretch us, they expand us, and they make us examine ourselves and our lives in ways that are not always pleasant - but which strengthen us and ultimately make us wiser.
or so i whimper to myself during the bad times!!

thanks girls you've made me feel less isolated - thanks balanomory for posting and GOOD LUCK x

hats off to you balano. It is really hard to have a good long look at your own parenting...many people don't have the strength of character. I'm proud of you. With those rules you won't go far wrong I'm sure. KEEP CALM!!!!!!!

Honoria - thanks! That means so much to me. Am determined to make it better - have a tendancy to be a bit of a quitter, but not on this one!! x.

Thanks too katiek - you have been an immense help! x.

balanomorey-just by realising you may not have handled situation well means your doing good.you saw a problem and want change.goodluck to you!

Thanks for that book reference KatieK. Mumsnet has been brilliant for recommending childcare/ self awareness/personal growth books and my bedside table groans under the weight of them all.
However I am also much better for reading them, and my family life much calmer as a result.
I have been thinking about how alot of us feel bad about shouting at our DC. I am a 'shouty mummy' at times when I am feeling stressed/ hormonal or unsupported. I don't like doing it and my DC have told me afterwards they don't like it.

However I never shout horrible words at them, only stuff like 'just why won't you do what I ask you?'. I have smacked my DC on very rare occasions when I have been on my own for long periods of time, their behaviour has been challenging and I've felt pushed over the edge. All in all I think I do a very good job considering how little support we get as a family from outside. Also I did not have good parenting models from my own parents.

I think what I am trying to say, is we should stop beating ourselves up so much about negative aspects of our parenting, and should look at all the really positive aspects.

Mimizan - you are so right. My dh often says that I worry too much about how well I am doing as a parent and that I should chill out a bit more. He reasons that chilling out = happier mummy = happier child = less bad bahaviour = happier mummy - a never ending cycle of happiness!!!

I agree that there is a lot of helpful literature out there to aid us frazzled mums - but at the same time, there just seems to be so many rights and wrongs - no wonder we all get stressed that we aren't doing it right. I really believe that bringing up kids in this day and age is far more stressful than it ever was because society has become so judgemental and critical of how we do it. My mum couldn't believe how much info I was bombarded with by the HV when dd was born - some of it obviously valuable, but gees, it's daunting anyhow without feeling like you need to abide by every bit of info to the letter!

So I guess what I'm trying to say is no wonder we all lose it as we are putting so much pressure on ourselves to be the perfect parents all the time - no shouting, definately no smacking, do it this way, do it that way...and it seems like how our kids behave is tangible evidence of our failure or success...there in the supermarkets in all its glory for all and sundry to witness whenever dc's go off on one, once again over something trivial! Sigh!!

i totally agree girls. we are doing FINE. more than fine, it's just that we are all a whole lot more worried about our performance as mothers than in any preceding generation.

i sat in with a child psychiatrist on friday morning (i'm a gp with an interest - strangely enough more pronouced since becoming a mother myself!! - in that direction)and he emphasised how bloody AWFUL you have to be as a parent to really damage children, so resilient and hard-wired for survival (emotional in this instance) are they. i am not sure i entirely believed him but it was reassuring to hear!!

he feels the differences between the rest of us (the non-abusive, non-neglectful parents) are basically pretty small and that we should all stop beating ourselves up about everything we do bcs our children are highly likely to be OKAY!!!

the best advice i've ever read is to trust your own instinct as a mother regardless of the latest fashion. but it's hard to trust yourself when you feel knackered, haggard, isolated, alone, ineffectual and confused! however i agree with you mimizan, actually we are doing bloody well, mostly, at a very very hard job, even if we have both resorted to the odd smack at exceedingly trying times when alone for long periods!! so we should remember that.

in summary: we are GREAT!

hmmm. i quite like my new persona as an american teenage cheerleader. wonder how long i can keep it up for...

xxx

ps balanomory ever feel a little, er, weighed down by responsibility when you hear that happy mother=happy kids=happy mother=happy everyone thing (which has also been run by me by a variety of people over the years) - no pressure eh??!not like the weight of the entire world's wellbeing lies on your shoulders or anything!!

Oh my god, to think I nearly didn't click on this thread..

I could have written most of these messages, and yet I've been feeling like I'm the worst mother in the world for so long because of my temper. It's reassuring to hear how common it is, especially with first children.

My ds1 is nearly 6, and I had ds2 5 months ago, and having him has really helped me see that my attitude towards ds1 is unacceptable. I would never shout at or get cross with ds2 - the thought of it turns my stomach. And yet, my precious beautiful ds1, who I love so much it makes me want to cry, regularly gets me so angry and frustrated I snap at him, shout at him, have smacked in the past (although stopped doing that a while ago as I felt so awful) and a couple of times I told him to shut up. I didn't shout shut up, or say it in an aggressive way, more a tired, exasperated way, but I still know it's a horrible thing to say to a child and I'm determined not to do it again.

I HATE behaving like this. It makes me feel so bad afterwards, it doesn't solve anything, and it is just not the way I pictured myself behaving when ds1 was a baby. I never got angry, up until the time we moved abroad when ds1 was 2.3, and I was so depressed and lonely, and I just started taking it out on him and he picked up on this and started playing up..

This vicious cycle went on for a good while, more than a year, before I realised it had to stop, or all his childhood memories would be of me red faced, yelling over something he'd done. I've read so many parenting books and taken bit s and pieces on board from all of them, but the best for me was called "How To Behave So Your Preschooler Will Too" by Dr Sal Severe. It helped me see that a lot of my son's behaviour was not naughtiness but just normal for a small child, and I had been expecting far too much of him, and the crux of it was I had to change the way I behaved rather than thinking I should change him, as I was the one with the problem.

I calmed down a lot since then but still explode occasionally, and as I say, it's since having my baby boy that I can see how I still have a way to go. I want my boys to know how much I love them, and feel they have unconditional love and care from me, and I know I can do it.

Yikes, I seem to have descended into mawkish sentimentality, sorry folks! This is just a subject so close to the bone for me, and I'm so glad I found this thread.

Happy mother=happy children kind of lets everybody else off the hook doesn't it?
Instead why not look at what makes a mother happier? More support from family/ government and respect in general for undertaking a difficult job. Mothers come under so much criticism, even on Mumsnet. All those outraged threads about behaviour people have witnessed in public. It can be very critical, and if you've had a bad time with your DC can leave you feeling even worse.

Katiek123, I love the adjectives you used knackered, haggard, isolated, alone, ineffectual and confused. They sum up how I have often felt, but not dared to share. We have to come across as so happy and positive. I was talking to someone at a playgroup the other day who said 'It's not the done thing to moan is it, unless you want people to start crossing the road when they see you?' She said she saves her moaning for her Mum, but what are you meant to do if you haven't got a Mum to moan to?

This thread is supportive. Thanks for starting it Balan.

Blimey! To think that my post has touched so many of you is amazing - I'm glad that it has not only helped me but many others too. How nice it is to know you aren't alone - it gives you back a bit of humanity dosn't it!! Well done Monkey for getting yourself out of the hole I'm currently trying to crag myself and my dd out of. Her behaviour has been up and down, has dramatically worsened in general over the last 2 weeks and I'm still grappling with my new approaches and trying to get it right.

Mimi - I know dh's ideal isn't easily gotten, but I know it's advice borne from genuine love and caring, bless him! I do get a lot of support and I suppose he's just floundering as to how he can make it better for me. Yesterday dd was playing up in the pub where we took her for lunch...I was trying my best, but he could see I was wound up and he basically said in a polite way dd is here to stay (never in question, obviously!!!) so just got to accept behaviour and deal with it - don't fight it - this is key to being happier. He's right - it's down to me.

Empathise with Monkey - feel so sad that my experience of motherhood has left me feeling like a failure and nothing like how I thought I'd be as a mum . DD will be 3 in a few weeks and I keep thinking back to 3 yrs ago when I was expecting her - all the excitement and anticipation. i feel I've let myself down as I can never get the time back to do it differently - and God, how I'd try and do it differently

Crag myself out of???? Replace crag with drag!

I didn't mean to sound critical of your DH. My DH says the same things to me, and I know it's him trying to support me. I meant more towards the childcare books that give out that kind of message, that it's mainly the responsibility of the mother.