Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

[balanomorey]

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

Dear Baloneymorey

i think that you've been really honest with your posts & this is one of your strengths. i wasn't sure whether to post or not but i am a professional working in child psychology & felt that ethically i could not ignore this post.

As well as the excellent and thoughtful comments others have posted on this thread
imo you do need some professional help asap with your anger and the way that you are relating to your dd otherwise she will certainly experience negative long term consequences.

It seems that your own life experiences are impacting in an detrimental way on your way of relating to her. If you do something about this now there will be a good chance of turning things around as she is still very young.

You can ask your gp to refer you to counselling/therapy. What you describe is not a healthy situation and will undoubtedly already be having an negative impact on dd self esteem. You may also have a family/children's centre in your area that can offer you support. From what you say I don't think you can make these changes on your own and it's imperative for your dd emotional and psychological well being that this situation changes.

Just because other people are treating their children in an abusive way does not mean that it makes it ok.

sorry balanomorey i've just realised i've made a typo with your name & i apoligise for this.

I can see that there are benefits in the supportive tone on this thread, but I think it has become a bit weird and self-congratulatory. As I said before, I was shouted at all the time as a child and it was awful and frightening and I think it has turned me into an anxious adult. I've been thinking about it much more now that I'm a parent myself and I can't believe how awfully my dps treated us, considering that they are basically good people and loving parents.

Just to add another suggestion, which may not be very easy, maybe all the posters who are complaining should try to deal with their dcs with more humour. What does it matter if they want to wear sparkly princess dresses? Why shouldn't it be seen as cute rather than a cue for a fight. I've seen little girls at playgroup wearing long sleaves under their fairy dresses so they don't have to be cold. Calling parents back at bedtime is normal, you don't have to get angry about it. My ds (who takes an hour to get to sleep and we have to stay with him) has started to spend bedtime repeatedly telling me his hand/eye/head ect is sore and asking me to kiss it better. It gets annoying but I tell myself it won't be long before he won't want me to kiss him at all.

And give up on the easy life. It's not easy and it's not going to be but it becomes much less difficult if you readjust your expectations.

Twinklelittlestar, I think you may have frightened some people off by suggesting they are treating their children in an abusive way.

My impression of this thread is that people have been honest about how they find parenting challenging at times. Not all the time but sometimes they find it hard to cope. For all you know they may be getting counselling or therapy already to address this. They may be finding it helpful to have other parents to talk to anonymously about some of things they find difficult. Sometimes this can be more effective than a session with a professional.

The thread has not just become a forum to moan about the DC. Posters have also made suggestions and given advice to Balanmorey.

tryingtoleave- I agree with using humour as a strategy to manage behaviour. However sometimes with all the will in the world there are days when using humour is very difficult. Those days when you have been on your own for extended periods, the DC are unsettled by something external, you are knackered, feel isolated and stressed. Sometimes it's hard to be calm. Mothers are human beings, and human beings do get cross. I don't advocate shouting, and I don't shout very often but I am not going to feel that I am abusive to my DC because I sometimes shout at them to get their shoes on

Great post, Mimizan!

Mimizan - very eloquently put.

I forgot to say that posters have remarked on how the thread has been helpful due to the absence of any smugness. Up till now the posts have been very non-judgmental in their support of other parents trying their very hardest to do their best by their DC.

Can we keep it that way?

Thanks again for all the posts - it's difficult for me to find the quality time to log on regularly as dh or dd always around - dh taken dd to soft play this afternoon so I have some space!

Katie - don't feel you've 'hijacked' the thread at all! You chat about anything you like - all your posts have been very helpful and often amusing and I love reading them. It's been interesting to read about how you all entertain your dd's and comforting to know that, once again, I'm not alone in finding it hard to occupy a wilfull child!

In answer to your question rachel, I can honestly say there isn't much I really enjoy doing with dd at the moment as I haven't hit on that thing that she gets absorbed in. Whatever play I initiate is over within 20 mins tops! I do enjoy watching her role play with dollies tho - that's always fun as I love hearing the little chats she has with them as she's making them tea and preparing their imaginary sarnies!!

Twinkle - can't help feeling a little shocked at the directness of your posts - it has made me feel sick to my stomach to hear that in the opinion of a professional, I need help quickly or dd will be scarred for life by my shouting. I'm certainly not condoning my behaviour and know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I'm obviously not alone in how I feel sometimes and the feelings I have experienced are not uncommon - are they? Just want to clarify that only on one occasion have I lost the plot like I did last week (when I pushed the chair etc). Dh says I'm too harsh on myself and maybe my purpose in posting is to remonstrate with myself that I shout at all - but am I being realistic - surely a certain amount of shouting IS normal and necessary when bringing up a child, although I wish I didn't do it. Sounds like I'm trying to make excuses for myself - don't get me wrong, I have really been examining my behaviour this past week or so and WANT to tone down my shouting - but it's something I'll be working on without the help of the pros, thank you!

Dear Balanomorey

To clarify I thought I needed to be direct as many other posters seemed to be normalising the type of behaviour you described in your initial and subsequent posts.

I'm a little confused though as you now say you have only lost the plot once but in your initial post you said that this was something that was happening continually & on a regular basis. I quote from your original post:

'However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip.'

Only you know how you are treating your DD. It was just from your original postings I felt ethically responsible to let you know that this is not ok for you DD & there will be long term consequences as tryingtoleave describes in her own experience. This poster did have the experience of her parents shouting at her all of the time & has had long term consequences as a result, specifically with issues of self-esteem. I was also aware that many of the other posters were normalising this behaviour & saying it was ok. When it is not.

I get the impression that there is a need to try & silence individuals who don't believe that it is ok to treat children in this way. It is afterall an abuse of power relations if we are not talking about the occasional incident. Everyone does get angry/cross of course but there are different ways to deal with this rather than taking it out on tiny children even if the parent is stressed this does not make it acceptable. It will also not change the fact that this type of relating from a parent will have long term consequences for self esteem & their development.

Hi Twinklelittlestar

Can I have some free professional advice please? If I describe the main scenario where I lose it( it's getting the 3 DC out to school in the mornings), will you advise me?

TIA

Twinklelittlestar: "I was also aware that many of the other posters were normalising this behaviour & saying it was ok. When it is not." I don't think that posters have been saying it has been ok to treat children like that. Personally, my posts have advised Balanomorey doing her utmost not to let her DD see her anger manifest itself, hence suggesting she goes upstairs to calm down etc etc. I think most people have said that they have experienced AN incident themselves of getting very shouty with their child and regretting it, and they have talked about things which have stopped those incidents arising again. Something which you yourself comment on: "Everyone does get angry/cross of course but there are different ways to deal with this rather than taking it out on tiny children."

As such, I really don't think this comment is necessary: "I get the impression that there is a need to try & silence individuals who don't believe that it is ok to treat children in this way." If you are referring to the people who have posted on this thread, then I'm not sure we are reading the same version of it! From what I have read, and I have read all the posts, the general gist is "Don't beat yourself up about it if you have lost it just the once and are trying to change your behaviour. We all get angry as parents from time to time. Here are some strategies that may help you...."

Having said all that, I did actually re-read all of Balanomorey's posts and it does seem that it seems to be happening fairly often. Or at least HAS been happening fairly often up until the point of posting this week. She has said that she is putting people's suggested strategies into practice so would it not be more sensible for a professional like yourself to advise that if she does NOT see any improvements in her own behaviour or her DD's anxious behaviour pretty soon through trying to change on her own, THEN she should really see a professional to help her?

When I talk about losing the plot I am referring to the 'throwing the items' incident after the debarcle over the chocolate at the garage...to me, that was totally unacceptable behaviour that has only happened once and will never happen again. I wondered if this is what you were juding me on

The 'continual shouting' I referred to in my original post is the day to day getting frustrated stuff - yes, it happens quite a lot but the use of the word 'continual' was maybe not the right one to use - I didn't mean literally continual. I'm not shouting all the time from dawn til dusk, but I have a wearing, demanding child and my fuse is a little shorter than I'd like it to be, so I do my fair share of raising my voice

My reason for posting was to see if I'm alone in this - it appears I am not. I shout more than I'd like to - I'm quite judgemental of myself. DH says not to worry and thinks the level of shouting in our house is probably typical of lots of households with a demanding 3 yo. Maybe he's right, maybe it's not OTT - but at the moment to me it is and it's making me sad. Which is why I posted to see if I could work out if it is fairly normal - I think it is! I guess what I'm trying to say is 'I acknowledge I shout, but is the picture really black enough to warrant counselling?' Although I do shout and occasionally smack, I am a loving, demonstrative, caring mum too - dson;t that go some way to redressing the balance?

I'm sure you felt you were posting for all the right reasons..however, I feel aggrieved to be honest that you can make such a sweeping statement on a forum such as this and tell me I have probably damaged my child through my actions...without having discussed this in depth with me on a one to one basis and seen and assessed the behaviour of my dd and the way in which we interract with each other. I have found that extremely upsetting and unhelpful. I could have accepted the suggestion to go and discuss anger management or maybe attend a course to deal with my shouting - but to categorically state dd will have been damaged already is gut wrenching - where's your proof? I am now left in a place I'd really rather not be - feeling worse than I ever did before I posted.

Hi I've just noticed this thread. Well done for your original post Balonamorey. It sounded to me as if you were fully aware that you were 'losing it' at times and not acting well with your DD. Why else would you post a self aware, honest account of it and seek advice/support from others?

TwinkleTLS: I think:

a) you are being too heavy with the OP. You may indeed mean to write from an ethical standpoint and be worried that people are trying to 'normalise' what amounts to abusive behaviour and want to redress a balance on this, but I think you are going too far the other way by trying to shock/scare Balonamorey into thinking she has already damaged her DDs self esteem.

b) I feel very suspicious of professional mental health people advising people in this capacity on message boards like MN. I am also a mental health professional and it would be against my code of ethics to engage in any unsolicited counselling/diagnosing (virtually ). I think you have a personal angle/investment in this subject, probably, because you are behaving unprofessionally.

Have just read your last post BM, I'm sorry you feel worse than you did before you posted and feel you really don't have to take what she said on board at all. If TTLS really is a professional working in child psychology she should know better than to make the kind of assessment she made of you and your daughter's situation without - as you so rightly said - having had any real life interaction with you or professional engagement.

twinkle.

had i been balanomorey and woken up to your post this morning, i am not sure i would have ever come near the mumsnet site again. i would certainly have been extremely upset, feeling harshly judged, guilty beyond reason and generally crushed.

it is a tribute to her strength of character that she has posted again, though i myself am reconsidering whether to participate in these forums in the future, and can't be the only one.

i second skydancer whole-heartedly. i am a gp with a strong interest in mental health. i think that, while your intentions may well be honourable, your comments are over-the-top and potentially very damaging to balanomorey.

'abuse' is a highly emotive term. surely we both know from experience that abuse is much, much likelier to be found in households where communication with the outside world is dysfunctional and - very often - lacking completely? while balanomorey fully accepts she is currently having difficulties, the best thing she could have done was open up about these and throw them out to the floor, so to speak.

i don't deny that shouting to excess is far from ideal (my own issues are not actually with anger,but my situation overlaps a lot with balano's in the sense of dealing with a highly spirited child, and feeling frequently overwhelmed by the challenges that presents); i do deny that posters on this site have been trying to normalise this - i think balanomorey has had a lot of thoughtful, compassionate and warm advice. she knows she needs to make changes and is already on the way to doing so.

i think it quite likely that some who may perhaps have been considering professional help may now be put off, worried they may be judged and labelled as abusive. that is a great shame and surely the opposite of what you intended by posting as you did.

i do hope, balanomorey, that you won't feel 'worse than ever i did before posting' for long. that would be a really, really sad outcome if so.

Balanomorey, you musn't feel bad. You have only behaved in the way many of us other Mums have done, and will do. To label it abusive is laughable.

Perhaps Twinkle's DC is not spirited, or still a baby and she has yet to experience first-hand some difficult behaviour.

just wanted to add, twinkle, that you must be aware of the difficulty in this country and especially on the NHS of accessing any sort of family therapy without having problems on a really pretty major scale. resources are stretched to their limit as it is dealing with the problems of autism, adhd, childhood depression and so on - there is no way that every family dealing with spirited children and their own reactions to said kids could access 'professional help' even if they wanted to, unless they could pay privately.

we once asked a child psychologist to assess our DD when we were feeling particularly helpless and it cost us £90 - i am not saying that was unreasonable (i know lawyers etc cost £200/hour) just that it is way beyond the reach of the average family especially in the current economic climate. in our own case things improved steadily with time, stability and patience, but it's been a really long haul and i could have done with input from a site like this when things were bad.

Thank you for these supportive posts - yet again, my spirits have been raised by you all.

I guess when you do bare your soul on a site such as this, you do lay yourself open to all kinds of criticism and acvice. I'm not blind to my faults, that's why I'm here. I also am not so stupid as to expect to only hear what I want to hear....but I think each and every poster deserves to be treated with consideration..sorry, twinkle, once again I'm sure your intentions were honourable, but I hope you won't dish out professional advice willy nilly like this again....it really didn't help me at all.

Thank you skydance and katie for your much kinder professional opinions - i am trying to replace the idea that dd is damaged with the idea that she (please God) isn't as advocated by you both.

All this has just made me more determined than ever to say 2 fingers to shouty mummy! When dd came back from soft play, I couldn't stop cuddling her...God, she means more to me than life, I couldn't bear it if I've messed with her mind

Thanks again. x.

Well said Katiek.

balanomorey I am glad your spirits have been raised (don't know about spirited children but spirited mothers are now coming to mind . I think your intention and huge wish not to harm your DD combined with such obvious (the way you write about her) love for her will see you through this and to to finding some better strategies to help you deal with frustrations, stress and flash-points. I'm speaking simply as a sympathetic mumsnetter with a two year old son who challenges my patience a lot but I adore him. I'm still learning how to be a mum and to be more patient. Let's be kind to one another on here. Being kind doesn't have to equal being collusive.

Katiek123 good posts and points you made. A good thread altogether I think.

Personally, I feel Twinkle has crossed boundaries of professional ethics to remonstrate on an internet site without really knowing you or your DD. However, harsh as it was and I certainly don't agree with it I suppose at the least it has made you think harder about the potential consequences of your actions which maybe is a good thing. Ignore advice you don't feel helpful but I guess I am trying to ensure that your child is always of paramount importance.

No matter how hard they try us and mine certainly does too. We have to remember they are the most precious things in the world to us and would hate to damage them in any way. I admit particularly in the early days my temper was too evident and I think it was only when I realised how this negatively affected my DD's behaviour that I realised I had to be calmness personified. I don't achieve this all the time, I am human but I think for the majority of the time I am a calm and rational human being and since this realisation DD's behaviour has also changed for the better.

She is and always will be hard work but the rewards are so worth it. Your DD sounds adorable too and I know you are trying really hard to keep control of your temper and it's great that you've admitted it and asked for help. So I guess I am saying keep using this forum, both the good and bad posts, to help yourself to gain perspective and ideas on how best to manage your DD. No one is perfect and we can all learn from each other.

Balanomorey, I am so glad that you have not been put off taking an active part in this thread. It has been one of the best threads I have seen on Mumsnet in a long time.

"I couldn't bear it if I've messed with her mind." I think you know in your heart of hearts that you won't have done that. Just as an example, my mum didn't have much patience with me and my sister when we were kids. She freely admits she was very shouty (quite a young mum so maybe less mature for that reason?) She smacked us quite often when her patience ran out too if we were being naughty, and even sometimes out of embarrassment if we were cheeky to her in front of one of her friends or something. She freely admits that they were the reasons she did it and now is very because of it. I don't know what her thought processes were at the time, but there was no mumsnet to help reassure her that she wasn't a terrible person for being human. I truly love her dearly and we are very close. I personally don't hit my kids for various reasons, but none of them include "because it psychologically damaged me as a child"!!! My mum is now the best nana you have ever seen and has infinite patience with her grandkids. Through her own experience she knows that being a parent is a very stressful job and that as a grandparent she naturally has much more patience as she is not the main carer of the child.

Balanomorey, I think you also have to realise that some children are more sensitive to a telling-off than other kids. My 4 year old crumples if I so much look at him sideways, and my 2 year old just laughs if I shout at him. Please don't let these so called "professionals" put you off Mumsnet. People on here are SO glad you had the guts to post so honestly and discuss your feelings and you are so self-aware. Thanks for this thread.

Wow I'm shocked! I'm not sure what I think.

I don't like the accusation that I (as one of the posters on this thread) have tried to normalise behaviour bordering on abusive towards our kids. I hope that I have described how things are with my kids and shown regret and concern over the fact that my behaviour might be abusive. And yes, I am one of the ones who is in therapy to try to improve my relationships with DCs and DH.

I feel shocked to be reminded that if I carry on the way I have been then it may be abusive and my children may become psychologically damaged. I SO hope they are not already damaged! I suppose this shock of being reminded helps me to feel more determined to get it sorted.

But it really does worry me that people will be put off talking about things like this because of these judgemental posts. These are things people find really hard to admit to and if they don't get as far as admitting it then they won't be able to solve it. On MN people usually get support and encouragement and feel able to talk about their worries when they don't feel like they can tell anyone in RL. If they start feeling like they can't say it on here either then there will be no outlet and the pent up feelings that will be unleashed on their loved ones will be even worse!

Apart from all that, I want to thank the people who advised me on bathtimes with my DD. I tried some of your ideas this afternoon. Instead of doing bathtime at the last minute when we are all tired and irritable and I want to get it done as quickly as possible and have no tolerance, I first of all tried doing it much earlier while I still had some energy (even though didn't go to bed till 4.30am this morning).

I did bathtime as a special activity for just me and DD for her to have some extra attention while DS played with DH. I'm hoping if she has regular slots of one to one attention she might be less attention seeking.

Because she screams about the water temperature (usually) I ran the bath to the temperature I thought was ok and then asked her to test it and tell me if she thought it was ok. She asked for more cold, tested it, asked for more cold, then said it was ok. She then got in calmly and was completely happy with it! I was amazed!

I then got her to wash herself instead of me doing it and she was really proud to be doing something grown up, much more capable at it than I had thought, and it distracted her from being angry about anything. It felt really good to see how much it pleased her. She even washed her own hair and she did get some water in her eyes but because she felt more in control of things she coped with it!

I then asked her if she was warm enough or needed more hot water in there (she didn't), then let her play with bath toys and bubbles while I cleaned the toilet and sink. Because I was occupied myself I wasn't rushing her and she could just enjoy it.

When she got out I wrapped her in towels and cuddled her til she felt warm enough so no screaming then either. I realised I hadn't been this loving with her for ages and not as often as with DS and felt sad, but happy I was doing it now. She even let me cut her toe nails with no crying because she was so calm.

The whole thing was enjoyable and improved our relationship, I couldn't believe the difference! And I felt so much better about myself that I had done bathtime without becoming a person I hate. Without this thread this would not have happened! So Twinkle I don't think this thread makes 'bad' parents worse!

Also earlier DD was nagging and demanding and I wanted to go on MN for a bit after coming back from taking them out for breakfast (at midday so it turned into breakfast-lunch). I tried that thing of saying I just want a bit of space while I do this and if you let me do it for a bit without nagging I will come and spend some time with you in a bit. This worked as well. I didn't feel so irritated by the boredom of joining in with her game because I felt my needs had been taken care of as well and it was fair. I felt like I was doing something good for her and teaching her to understand that I need space too.

All this with a hangover and only a couple of hours sleep [smug]. I'm sure it will all go wrong again tomorrow .

But again, I want to say, it is this thread which has motivated me to really get on with doing practical things to improve my relationship with DD and I am uneasy about the thread being 'threatened' by posts with a judgemental and unsupportive tone. Surely there could have been a 'nicer' way to say what you wanted to say Twinkle?

AN how lovely to read you - that's fantastic that making positive changes has helped so much, so quickly! well done you - you really have got the right to be [smug] today and no-one is going to be anything other than delighted for you - anti-smugness campaign hereby officially (though temporarily) suspended! hurray.

Dear Balanamorey

I am sorry if I caused distress to you and also to the other posters on this thread. My wish was to draw your attention to the needs of your dd. It was not my intention to do this in a way that was not helpful to you. ON reading your post I was concerned for wellbeing of your child.

In your original post that you were explaining that your own life experiences were having a negative impact on the expectations you had of your dd and also the ways this was leading you to relate to her. From the very open way you described how she was responding to your behaviour I thought it imperative that you sought help quickly for yourself in order for this not to have long term consquences for your dd.

I suggested that you might seek counselling/therapy for yourself(not your dd) to process some of your own life experiences/expectations. As you know this is not easy to do on your own & counselling sessions are often available in your local area free of charge or in some cases for a nominal fee & your gp would be able to guide you in the right direction. I also thought that you might be able to get some support from your local children's centre who often provide parenting support classes etc.

To clarify from what you described from in your OP I did not suggest that your daughter needs to see a psychologist/or other professional as it would seem that from what you have said that she is a very normal little girl and is responding to this situation in a way that is appropriate.

I do believe that how we parent has an impact on our children both positive & negative & therefore the behaviour you described in your original post will be having an impact on her but as I said she is still very young & if you address this now the relationship can blossom.

Again sorry for any distress caused to you & the other posters. However I do continue to feel that on this thread thread there has been an imbalance of posters highlighting the emotional needs of parents at the expense of the child. I was trying to address this balance.