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Original poster

MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

328 replies

morningpaper · 17/10/2007 14:15

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

  • please
  • thank you
  • excuse me
  • hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

  • hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
  • closing mouth when eating
  • asking to get down from table
  • thanking adults for hospitality
  • pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

  • thanking adults for nice meals
  • thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

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bozza · 18/10/2007 12:09

My lovely 3yo DD says "please may I leave the table" at every meal and even snacks, but has developed a habit of picking her nose in the middle of her ballet lesson. I am sat watching trying to attract her attention to get her finger away from her nose.

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 12:10

I do think its rather a moot point somehow though

If you were brought up with good manners then it would be impossible to bring your own children up without them ... I have always said please, thank you, you're welcome and excuse me etc to my children and they have always done it back .. I always say 'thank you for having me' and 'thank you for coming' and they say it too

you say what you know I think

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 12:11

I have just bid on a cake stand on ebay by the way

bozza · 18/10/2007 12:13

Said 3yo does however use a knife and fork much better than her 6yo brother and she knows it. "DS has swapped his fork over, DS is stabbing his food" etc etc.

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 12:14

morningpaper - yes, it's much, much harder to bring up a child to express its true feelings than to rigidly enforce set reactions to a given prompt

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 12:18

Twig - I think that manners ought to be an expression of true feeling, taking consideration of true feeling of both/all parties.

Protocol (how you hold your knife and fork, who sits where at dinner, how invitations are replied to etc etc) is another matter entirely. It is a set of rules that enable the smooth functioning of a group.

It is very useful IMO to distinguish the two. Both are very important.

By insisting that a child says thank you and only thank you to a given prompt (eg receiving the offer of a cake) you create confusion in a child's mind IMO.

TigerFeetInLovelyNewShoes · 18/10/2007 12:20

My three year old hasn't quite got the hang of please and thank-you all the time, but every now and again she will say something like "thank you for my new dress Mummy, I really love it, thank you for buying it for me", totally spontaneously, and I just melt

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 12:26

they don't need to only say thank you though they can say whatever they like about the yumminess so long as it is prefaced or followed by thank you

its good manners

children who don't say thank you have not been taught good manners and only those who don't have good manners would be able to do this IMHO .. if you don't think please and thank you are important then why should you teach them / model them (unconsciously)

by the time you are adult it is part of you .. I could no more not thank someone when appropriate than not greet someone .. I find it rude

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 12:27

TigerFeet - sounds as if you are doing a brilliant job

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 12:30

Twig - well, I'm in the opposite camp - I think that "thank you" is the nice-to-have, but an expression of true appreciation essential

Lorayn · 18/10/2007 12:31

When dd has a playdate I thank the child for being well behaved when they leave, so I would expect my DD to thank her host if she visits somewhere.

I was bought up to use my knife and fork correctly, no arms higher than wrists on the table, hand in lap when using just a spoon etc, and as a result I do notice it when I eat with people, I am obviously not the only one so I would prefer my children to be at this advantage than eat like animals.

Thankyou letters, again I find important, but as my DD struggles with her handwriting ratehr than make her write out tons of letters she ahs to fill out ready bought cards.

And Anna, I am sorry for using the word yummy earlier, hope it wasn't my use of it that turned you into enid blyton

Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 12:32

Tiger feet she sounds lovely!

Anna I totally disagree with your method. You want your child to express it's emotions, but only those which are socially appropriate. That is a huge burden to place on a child. I don't want my child to FEEL gratitude 1000 times a day. I just want them to express politely an appreciation for other people's thoughtfulness. Asking them to start delving deeply into their FEELINGS and EMOTIONS all the time is hazardous. Over-empathising can result in all sorts of psychological issues.

OP posts:
Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 12:34

"Mummy I really do want a fork" (said longingly and sweetly of course)

"Oh mummy how wonderful! Now I can eat my dinner applying the correct protocol!"

this sounds EXHAUSTING and not at all practical

OP posts:
Lorayn · 18/10/2007 12:35

morningpaper, said child would alreayd have her fork, laid out on the table in the proper manner

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 12:35

hah .. the issue is when the child is at someone's house and presented with a home-cooked meal that has obviously taken a lot of time to prepare but is not to the child's liking

what would we have here then?

a 'thank you' or an 'euwwwwwww yuck I don't like that'

and that to me seems the extrapolation of 'ooo yummy cake'

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 12:36

can't your kid gets its own fork?

Lorayn · 18/10/2007 12:36

Ewww yuck is rude when someone has gone to the effort to cook you dinner.

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 12:41

My daughter never says "yuck" but conversely she never gets invited to households where anyone expects her to eat anything that is not to her liking.

When we have other children over here, as we do very often, they are always offered the same homecooked meal that everyone else is eating (and that is child-appropriate) but if the children don't like it, they are not expected to eat it and are offered ham, cheese, salad, fruit etc from the fridge instead.

Don't worry Lorayn - I didn't worry about it .

Yes, our table is always set before meals begin.

TigerFeetInLovelyNewShoes · 18/10/2007 12:42

Well much as I would like to take the credit, I think her nursery has as much to do with her manners as I do

I find that leading by example is the way to go on this one. If I say please and thank you to her, she does it back to me.

However there is a down side to this approach - I often get told off for not doing as I am told . Also, if she asks for something that I don't want her to have (eg another bag of sweets or whatever) then I get tears and "but I asked really nicely Mummy why can't I have it? [rolls eyes].

Just thought of something else that made me , I sent her to thank the parents of the little girl next door for some ice-cream that she had been given by them, but they don't speak much English and she came back with more ice cream!

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 12:44

Morningpaper - personally, having seen at first hand, the damage done by upbringings where feelings were subsidiary to protocol, I do not agree that bringing children up to have their feelings taken account of, and for them to learn to take account of the feelings of others, is damaging or inappropriate.

The reverse is very dangerous. Keeps lots and lots of shrinks in business in these parts .

Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 12:52

I don't see how training children to say please and thank you is at all dangerous

I don't udnerstand how your children come across as being polite, if they don't say please and thank you?

OP posts:
nurseyemma · 18/10/2007 12:53

I think good manners are lovely in these rude and abrupt times. V hung up on them myself I'm afraid, always say "may I have.." etc.

Agree tho that meanings should be conveyed to los as well as learning things by rote, sullen "thankyous" etc always seem trite and meaningless.

As for my dd well she's only 13 months so we've got a way to go yet. Have to make some inroads with my dh first

My MiL has THE WORST TABLE MANNERS IN THE WORLD. AND IS ALSO ONE OF THE RUDEST MOST UNGRATEFUL PEOPLE EVER. Beleive in social learning so will have to work hard to rectify generations of poor manners I fear!!

pagwatch · 18/10/2007 12:53

My fav from my DD is mummy "please may can I have..." which always makes me laugh.
I posted earlier that she does not always construct requests containing plaese and it does not bother me. But she does Always say thank you as do all my children even DS2 who has very limited language and severe ASD. I always find it amusing when waiters etc serve him and he interupts his humming/rocking/muttering to look up and say a very clear "FANK YOU".
It is usually very loud as he is always extremely grateful for his chicken and it is as a consequence a little scary. But sincere and polite.
It does occasionally shame parents in the area who have children articulate enough and yet determinedly rude.
The reason all my kids say this and are polite is easy , we are always polite to each other at home. No we are not the Brady bunch but if you can't be nice to the people you love on a day to day basis why then fake it when you are out.

Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 12:55

ahhh pagwatch, your children can come round to tea any time

OP posts:
theFlyingEvil · 18/10/2007 12:55

oooh manners - and i thought i was old fashioned in the amount i insist upon in my house!
please and thank you are ALWAYS expected, if i don't hear it, i just keep repeating "pardon?" (not sorry or excuse me!) until i do hear it.
no interrupting when others are talking. ESPECIALLY no persistent tapping on arms to get attention whil others are talking.
table manners - if a child is old enough to eat with cutlery then it should be used. am not fussy about what hands they are held in, but woe betide any child of mine who eats with their fingers!
sitting properly on chairs - recently dd had a friend over who squatted on her chair throughout the meal. the child is aged 7. tbh the issue hadn't arisen of HOW one sits on a chair until then, but bums definitely on seats in my house.
mouths closed when food in them and no talking with mouths full either.
no starting until everyone is served and no leaving the table without asking.

phew that will do for the time being...

so does anyone want to come for lunch?!!

completely agree though that manner expectations are age dependent - my lot are 8, 5 and 17 months. dd2 is exempt from most of that at the mo, but as soon as she is old enough to understand she too will have to toe the line.

it is actually victorian england in the Evil househol