MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

[morningpaper]

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

• please
• thank you
• excuse me
• hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• closing mouth when eating
• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for hospitality
• pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

• thanking adults for nice meals
• thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

I have recently taught my DS (3) to say Your Welcome when someone says Thankyou to him - it gives me great pleasure to hear it!

i do have to remind ds to say please nad thank you a lot, so it is a bit parrot like. however, he's only 3 and i think it's better to get him into the habit of saying it now and worry about whether he is being appreciative when he's older. occasionally we will be in the car and he will say something like "thanks for taking me swimming mummy" out of the blue and it is magic. shocking table manners though

For a child to acknowledge you are helping, saying, providing something for them, however small they show that appreciation (and if they are able to) I would consider as nice manners.

We are annotyed not to get thankyou letters as well. It's not that we especially want them, but it does show that the child is appreciative. We always make DD and DS do them. It's good manners to thank someone who has taken the troubkle to buy you a present. Even if it is only a 5-quid peice of tat from Woolies (which is all we ever get/expect, frankly).

"ooh mummy look at those lovely cakes - do you think I could maybe have one?"

I would say "Yes you could maybe have one" but that doesn't really deal with the issue does it?

I would insist on "Please may I have a cake?" I'm afraid

And I disagree with:

"it is perfectly possible for a child to be polite and friendly without ever using the word please or thank you"

So when I hand said child a cake, what polite thing is there to do except say "Thank you!" ?

I like manners when they are not overdone but brilliantly sufficient - Chekhovian manners? I can't stand "you're welcome" and "have a nice day". It's a very short step to "enjoy your meal".
Thank you letters are non-negotiable in our house, however naff or useless the gift. I cast my beady eye over the letters and if they are lazy, I make them draw a picture as well (over the years this has ensured very full and newsy thank you letters). When DS2 was 8 he received a boomerang in the post from someone in Oz. He thanked her for the "two halves of a boomerang" which he "doubted could ever be used".

Gosh MP - I think "Please may I have a cake" is dull, dull, dull and formulaic and I would never insist on it.

The child's own enthusiastic self-expression (which is perfectly good manners and polite in this instance) is to be encouraged in all circumstances in my book. I don't want any child of mine to learn to think/speak in clichés .

If I offered a child a cake, I'd be much more excited by "Gosh how yummy" than by a boring old "thank you".

lol @ boomerang

I think manners SHOULD be learnt by rote

Yes it is dull but it's polite

I say "May I have..." and I'm 33

Sometimes the words come before the emotions - ir even in the absence of them - I think that's just polite

of course it's yummy you posh brat

I would want a THANK YOU

I don't think anything bar spelling and timestables should be learnt by rote

"May I have.."

is Soooo lovely

You can see old ladies positively melting with satisfaction when you say that sort of thing

treating others with consideration

offering to do things first/helping selves last

opening doors, giving up seats (when did children stop giving up seats for adults?)

THINKING about OTHER PEOPLE

more important than a rote 'please' or 'pardon' IMO.

I'm not in the business of teaching children the so-called manners of past generations.

I think times have moved on. What is important is to acknowledge the true feelings and efforts of others.

In past generations, formulaic "manners" were drummed into children. But true feelings were repressed

Anna "Gosh how yummy" is what Titty (Swallows and Amazons) might say. Why not go the whole hog and teach: golly gosh how yummy?

But the two are not mutually exclusive

I am perfectly able to express my feelings

For example my horror at the rudeness of some people

... yes there is a little irony at not teaching the manners of past generations but teaching them to speak like they have fallen out of the Faraway Tree

"lots of posh people i know just say what, very abrupt i think, this whole thing of not using any french words is from hundreds of years ago, if we were being pedantic we shouldnt be saying dessert, toilet or serviette."

Isn't this the Nancy Mitford "U vs Non-U" thing?

yes v Mitford. Not necessary wrong - hate 'serviette'

I get very confused by morningglory

I keep thinking "I don't remember writing that"

Anna - I don't think anything bar spelling and timestables should be learnt by rote.
I would add latin declentions, verbs that take etre, verbs that take avoir, trigonometry, Ich Mich Mir Du DIch Dir usw.
Basic manners are learnt by rote - it is the feelings (enthusiasm, kindness etc) that cannot be taught by rote (more is the pity) which is how you end up with a surly boy saying thank you but his face and body-language saying something entirely different). Better the surly boy with the hunched shoulders saying thanks than the surly boy with the hunched shoulders saying piss off losers which is what he might like to say.

quite simply I find children who don't say 'please' and 'thank you' rather brattish and it reflects on their parents thta they don't care about 'formulaic manners'

my children say 'Please may I have' and I rather disklike children who say 'can I have' .. I turn into my 3rd form geography teacher Mr Vimes (yes, really) and want to say "I am sure you are able to have that but whether you may is a different matter altogether"

a child who says 'gosh how yummy' when presented with a cake is thinking of themselves and their own satisfaction.. a child who says 'thank you' is aware that someone has gone to some effort and is grateful for it

totally different things IMO

lol caroline

Actually I think it is easier on children to make them say "thankyouverymuch" than it is to keep making them FEEL grateful/empathy all the time - which is exhausting

I still remember the one year that my parents let me have friends for a birthday tea - and how GRATEFUL I was made to feel for all their effort! It was exhausting.

my children also say 'you're welcome' when they are thanked for something