MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

[morningpaper]

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

• please
• thank you
• excuse me
• hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• closing mouth when eating
• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for hospitality
• pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

• thanking adults for nice meals
• thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

IME, if you nail down really good table manners, everything else follows suit and falls into place.

Good thread.

all children should ask 'to spend a penny' rather than asking 'to go to the toilet'

Caroline - if you are aware of your own feelings and aware of the feelings of others, life is a hell of a lot easier than if you aren't . Anxiety and depression are largely the result of not having a good grip on what's going on around you, and not being able to look after your own needs and defend yourself. Which are critical skills to be learnt as early as children are ready - overprotecting children does not make them carefree, it makes them dependent/needy.

Anna - Overprotecting - where did that come from?

overprotecting = "striving for a childhood free of worry" = shielding children from their feelings and those of others

True Anna, but to encouraging constant empathising can result in psychosis, where the barriers between the self and others is broken down - this is something which can be observed in certain religious experiences which increase the likelihood of a psychotic episode. We need a certain DISTANCE from other people's feelings or we overload. There are times when empathy is appropriate to encourage desirable behaviour ("How would you feel if your sister stole your toy and wouldn't share it?") but encouraging this depth of analysis with every person that you interact with (assuming you say please/thank you sevearl/hundreds of times a day) will not encourage optimal mental health IMO.

Anna - What sort of worries would you suggest for my not yet 2 year old daughter? And my 3 month old, I don't want him languishing in his bouncy chair thinking the world is a nice safe, warm place with lots of friendly faces who will coo at him?

It's fine if someone is so keen to stay in touch with himself that he constantly asks himself "how do I feel" or "how does he feel" or "are we feeling the same thing" etc. Fine, but I wouldn't want to sit next to this man at a dinner party.

Caroline - well, I would hope your daughter is getting lots of rough and tumble play with her older siblings and her father and learning to defend herself in a loving environment with people who do not wish to harm her before she moves into the outside world of nursery school. Having to stand your ground and assert yourself within the confines of your family and close friends/family groups is very good for 2 year olds.

morningpaper - but you don't just "put yourself in other people's shoes" and accept their point of view. You defend yourself also from their point of view - but you can only do that if you know what your own feelings are, and, crucially, that they are legitimate.

Anna - What do you mean by stand up for herself? She is 22 months old , a bit younf for fencing lessons or the debating society.

there is a big difference between asking yourself constantly 'how does he fell' 'how do i feel' and 'how do we feel' to thinking 'i wont do that because it will hurt someone'.

Manners maketh the man and all that.

I think manners are very important. Having worked in a custumoer facing industry for many years I have met some F**king rude adults and I abhor it.

Good manners cost nothing and teached kids to think about other peoples feelings imo.

Am still working on the 'always say thankyou for a present' even if it's something yuo don't really like with my 5 year old ds. Any tips?

Try empathy
Explain how the person took their time and money to go out and buy that present, even if it wasnt what the child wanted.

Caroline - well, if you think your daughter might like to fence or debate (which are excellent skills to learn, I quite agree ) you should be ensuring she is getting some groundwork in now . Does she hold her own in conversations at dinner when her older brothers are around? Is she making sure she gets to join in/have a turn when they play a game? Does her father roll around with her on the floor / bed and have friendly fights?

At two she ought to be able to do all those things. Lucky girl (like my daughter) having two older brothers

strawberry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anna - She can only say a few words. No, DP does not roll around on the floor with her. Should I book an appointment with an educational psychologist?

Caroline - she doesn't have to be able to speak fluently to hold her own during a dinner conversation - she should just be busy ensuring as much attention is paid to her as to her brothers (and I hope that she is at dinner with her brothers and two parents?).

No, don't take your daughter to an Ed Psy. She is fine, I'm sure. But you might want to take your DH along for a bit of therapy if he doesn't roll around on the floor with his children...

strawberry Sod the get up and go!!!!!!!!!!! GET ON WITH YOUR WORK. STEP AWAY FROM MN... FACEBOOK ETC! Right NOW young lady!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anna - We all eat together every night. My DD is my third child and at supper during the week, I tend to concentrate on my sons who I have not seen since 7.30am (when they leave for school) whereas I have had the pleasure of my DDs prattling all day. Are you sure I don't need to see an educational psychologist - you seem very definite about the correct way to parent?

No more definite than you . But I expect that life is very different in my household to yours .

Just to give you a bit of background... my partner's brother died in very tragic circumstances in his 20s and there is every reason to believe that that tragedy could have been avoided had his parenting been a bit more sensitive and less repressive... so we are quite informed on that topic, for reasons.