MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

[morningpaper]

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

• please
• thank you
• excuse me
• hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• closing mouth when eating
• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for hospitality
• pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

• thanking adults for nice meals
• thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

lots of posh people i know just say what, very abrupt i think, this whole thing of not using any french words is from hundreds of years ago, if we were being pedantic we shouldnt be saying dessert, toilet or serviette.

hifi - there have been threads and threads on this topic

im only commenting on pardon, soz didnt know about the other threads

serviette, SERVIETTE, Thats swearing dear child, now dab your face with your napkin please

QueenofQuotes, I wouldnt mind so much, but dd is lefthanded and manages to eat with her knife and fork in the right hands, but dp is right handed!!

Also, I had his parents and brother over for dinner not long ago, they are lovely people and were really polite, but I couldnt help noticing his brther had the knife and fork round the wrong way too!!!

At what age do these things become an issue to other people????

middle age

What things? manners?
well, I'm 26 and I find them very bloody important!

I think half of this is bollocks, you know

it is perfectly possible for a child to be polite and friendly without ever using the word please or thank you

and it is possible to do all the things on your "essential" list and still be rude, sullen, and unpleasant

I don't think most adults do half the things on your list, especially when talking to children - how are children expected to learn when they aren't spoken to politely?

and yes I do encourage good manners and politeness, but good manners and consideration are a state of mind, an attitude, not a list of rules

I meant at the childs age

F&Z - I completely agree.

Consideration for others and meeting others at the half way point are incredibly complex skills that take years to learn.

Children parroting please and thank you and hello is not necessarily very pleasant to behold.

i am personally shocked by a child of about 4 years not by having the basics, please, thank you, excuse me. essential, desirable, nice should be part of the school curriculum, compiled by mums netters of course.

Absoloutely - thank god someone said that.
i HATE parents who leap on children who are being friendly and nice and bark at them to stick please in their request - as if THAT is the thing that defines manners.
My little DD is a sweetie and is considerate and nice. She may say "ooh mummy look at those lovely cakes - do you think I could maybe have one?" and that is good enough for me.
Yet a friend has a daughter who comes in and shouts "I want a drink", mum will then say "PLEASE !", daughter will parrot "please" and I am then treated to hours of how fab her DD's manners are !
I think being thoughtful and considerate are far more important than remembering to stick a "magic word" into a sentence

but hifi we say pudding, loo and napkin

my dh's dd is 8 and doesn't do please/thankyou/excuse me/may i please have.... it absolutley does my head in. but i'm not suprised as dh is rather lacking in the same (even tho he is generally polite and lovely )

we started if you don't say please, you don't get it and you can't ask again until tomorrow thing which worked well until it fell by the wayside. we must start it up again. don't know what to do about the other things though

bossykate, you are an example to society, keep it up.

Definitely agree that a polite overall manner is better than the forced please and thankyou's.

My main bug bears are (as you probably guessed ) table manners, but when it comes to please and thankyou's appreciation is paramount, not just words.

I said earlier in the thread that my dc's compliment me on the meal at dinner time, they do say thankyou when I put their plates down, but I prefer the 'ooh, mum this is yummy' whilst they are eating it.

is it sofa or settee that is social suicide? always forget.

settee

it's sofa

i agree that consideration, remorse, appreciation are difficult concepts that some adults haven't got to grips with - so in the meantime i'd still like the sorry, please, thank you, excuse me etc even if it's merely "parroted".

where does couch come in to it then?

so is it honestly a huge deal if people have their knife and fork the "wrong" way round???

It's interesting I was thinking about the whole knife and fork thing while cooking dinner. I can (and generally) do just about manage to eat with them in the "correct" hands (who decided which was the "correct" hand anyhow ). But when I'm chopping something up (ie onions, carrots) I ALWAYS hold the item with my RH and cut with my left.....

And still hate sodding desert forks and spoons - bahhumbug.

..............is it considered "bad manners" to hold ones spoon in ones left hand????

Though some set their standards abit high. Funny watching DH's (childfree and abit dopey) brother trying to teach dd to say please and thank you and getting frustrated that she wasnt. She is 14 months and has just grasped ma ma...

spare a thought for children with speech problems; it's taken DS until 3.5 to consistently say please/thank you.

DW and I get really wound up about other people's kids who come to our house and say "want orange" or "don't like" when something is put in front of them.

It is horrifying how many children don't appear to be taught to say please and thank you. And they dont thank you for having them at the end, either.