MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

[morningpaper]

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

• please
• thank you
• excuse me
• hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• closing mouth when eating
• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for hospitality
• pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

• thanking adults for nice meals
• thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

My children say please and thankyou, just not all the time, there are other words that can be used to express gratitude.
If I buy DD something for example, she'll find it on her bed (I rarely hand it to her) and she'll come downstairs give me a hug and say 'wow, mum, thats great, you're the best' should I make her say thankyou as well??

It sounds perfectly charming to me

I like good table manners because otherwise people who don't have children are utterly REPELLED and DISGUSTED at eating times, which is not really what you want

No Lorayn, but in the absence of genuine spontaneous ejaculations of gratitude, a "thank you" always suffices

and yet strangely we don't get many offers.
Ds1 says that other peoples' insecurities are the reason they find DS2 difficult as he is odd but gorgeous and totally harmless.
But in the light of other discussions I couldn't possibly comment .
DS2 also likes to read peoples name tags in shop and say hello with great gusto.
Guarenteed to scare the bejesus out of your average Tesco's checkout person.

How odd it is that the manners and social skills he has learnt are now out of kilter with the heads down monosyllabic world.

flyingevil, I was similar to you with the please and thankyous when dc's were toddlers, I wouldnt let go of what I was giving them until some kind of thankyou, but now they are older (more DD than DS) I allow them to say whatever they want to thank me, as long as they say something

"My daughter never says "yuck" but conversely she never gets invited to households where anyone expects her to eat anything that is not to her liking."

do you have any self-awareness Anna?

Is there really anything to teach?

Children learn by example. So if you say please, thank you and welcome appropriately, your children will too ... eventually. If you respect your children's feelings, they will learn to respect others' ... eventually. Dd's school is great at reinforcing this. It is automatic, don't think feelings need to be suppressed to be polite in a superficial, oil-the-wheels-of-everyday-interaction way.

Dd is 4 and if she refuses to say thank you, then so be it. I will say it on her behalf. She will pick it up that it is the right thing to do, once her social conscience kicks in.

As they get older, they will have to learn to be diplomatic, like not to point out other people's bad manners or difference in a loud voice (cringe). They are allowed to refuse food with a "no thank you".

Lorayn - completely with you . A "wow mum that's great" is worth a billion trite thank yous...

"I like good table manners because otherwise people who don't have children are utterly REPELLED and DISGUSTED at eating times, which is not really what you want"
LOL, I understand that completely!! It actually puts me off my dinner if people at my table arent eating nicely. So much so that when I knew one of dd's friends was coming for dinner the second time I arranged it so she would come a day when DP wouldn't be home so I could have the excuse of not eating til he came home and doing them dinner seperately.

My Grandma used to say "clean fingernails, shiny hair, good manners and a sparkling smile were all that was needed in life". She didn't mention large breasts .

Twig, would you expect a child dinner guest to eat something they didnt like? or am I misreading your post?

I agree that good table manners are essential if your children are to have any social life at all.

However I have witnessed my stepsons bringing home large numbers of friends over the years, and the ones with the "best" table manners are not the most endearing or entertaining friends... they have been trained out of existence and self-expression

no Lorayn

but there is a difference between a polite child not liking something and a spoilt brat not liking something .. this is where manners come into force

tbh I've tended to find that most children will eat most things put in front of them without much fuss in a sort of peer-pressure way .. the particularly fussy children are catered for .. I don't care if food is eaten or not .. and if someone asks politely for an alternative then it shall be given .. but if a brat speaks brattishly it will be forever brat-branded

Anna I disagree with you VERY STRONGLY

Good manners does not mean repressing everything and having no personality

los definitely learn by example and it's not a good example to preach or point out flaws loudly in front of them!!

I've had to ask MiL to NOT say "yuck" (yes really) or "eww no it's horrible" when testing the temperature of dds food in front of her prior to giving it to her (!)

Can't eat in same room anymore because of her turning her nose up at everything, putting elbows on the table, chomping (making that scoff scoff noise) and pulling and prodding me in an attempt to get my attention (Evil, this I especially hate), so she can speak with her mouth full.

My 1 yr old dds "manners" seem sweet and sanguine in comparison. I don't think you realise how much "decorum" means to you until you're flooded with the alternative.

we are of course talking about different age-groups you understand

I'm thinking of DS and friends who are probably 5 - 7 in the main

DD and friends .. aged around 3 and 4 have more leeway

But morningpaper, asking a child to say please and thank you automatically without any expression of feeling is the very essence of repression of personality

Oh, I totally agree on the difference between little barst just being spoilt and a child not really liking something. My children eat just about anytihng but I think if dd went for dinner somewhere and someone gave her something she didnt like, she'd try to eat the rest and then say she didnt really like the food, apologetically, so as not to offend (she is almost 7 btw)

nurseyemma, "Can't eat in same room anymore because of her turning her nose up at everything, putting elbows on the table, chomping (making that scoff scoff noise) and pulling and prodding me in an attempt to get my attention (Evil, this I especially hate), so she can speak with her mouth full." LOL!!

Where did you find her? Oh sorry, she is your MIL ...

that wasnt meant to say barst it wasnt a crass shortening of an unspeakable, more a typo of brats

anna .. with the greatest respect ... tosh and twaddle

No it isn't. It is an expression which recognises the effort of the other person. It doesn't need to express the recipient's deep and meaningful emotions. It is just an acknowledgment of the giver's effort.

Anna would you say please to a waiter when ordering food?

"to say please and thank you automatically without any expression of feeling"

This restraint is what distinguishes us from our American cousins who say "wow, ma'am, that is the best rib-eye steak I have ever seen" but probably mean "call that a steak, trailer trash". Less is more don't you think?

No, I would say thank you when he took the menus away.