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Original poster

MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

328 replies

morningpaper · 17/10/2007 14:15

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

  • please
  • thank you
  • excuse me
  • hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

  • hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
  • closing mouth when eating
  • asking to get down from table
  • thanking adults for hospitality
  • pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

  • thanking adults for nice meals
  • thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

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Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 11:09

Twigg we should have a tea party

We could say "I don't know darling, CAN you have it? It is within the realms of physical possibility?" and tut together

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Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 11:10

You're welcome is lovely

My 2 year old has started saying this

I think she learnt it at nursery

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FrankAwenstein · 18/10/2007 11:11

I got stopped by another mum today in the playground who looked after my ds on a school trip and she said that he was the most polite child she had ever met

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 11:11

I'll bring the doilies

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 11:12

this is reminding me that I really really really want one of those 3-tier cake stands but I can't justify it

even with a squeaky and elongated pleeeeeaaaase

Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 11:14

oooh I got a china cake stand for my birthday last week

It is LOVELY

I want to cover it with florentines and for some reason, French Fancies

OP posts:
Bink · 18/10/2007 11:16

Agree with mp: it seems self-evident to me that practising-by-copying (which is a more accurate term than "parroting" - the latter being distortingly derogatory, don't you think? - would you say that a baby learning to say "dada" was "parroting"?) "please" and "thank you" is a perfectly sensible and desirable first step towards whatever more subtle considerate behaviour will/may follow.

I would add to the "desirable" list (for 6+, would be "essential" for 8+) some sort of skill for coping with something which is not absolutely one's best cup of tea - the game a visitor wants to play that one doesn't quite, the meal that's put on the table at a friend's house, the present from the grandparents that's possibly a bit babyish - a deep breath, a held tongue and a bright smile being one way.

Spiderhammer · 18/10/2007 11:19

Thank you letters are basic good manners in my book. I'm put off families who don't bother to send them.

Mind you, the insistence on taking hundreds of Christmas cards to school for every vague aquaintance and every teacher is very silly and wasteful IMO.

'Please' and 'thank you' are musts. 'Thanks for having me' is too.

I dislike people on scooters shouting 'S'CUSE ME' expecting me and my children to move out the way so they can whizz by. It's encourageing the current trend for the marginalisation of the pdestrian. Sadly other parents think it's fine. Actually I feel a thread coming on.

I say 'what?'. I was brought up to say it and I like it. My children, though, have been told at school, 'say "pardon?" as "what?" is rude'. Grrrr. I'm not normally a snob but this definitely brings out the snob in me.

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 11:19

Oh Caroline - I am dead against the learning languages by rote .

Spellings and timestables need to be stored in a totally different part of the brain to verb declensions. And, if you speak a language fluently, they are (MRI proves it ).

Spiderhammer · 18/10/2007 11:22

I think 'you're welcome' is nice but by no means necessary. I remember in the States a woman shouting at me and it took me a while to understand what she was saying and what my crime had been. I had held a door open for her. She had said thank you then continued to bellow at me, 'Hey! What happened to 'you're welcome?'

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 11:25

You're welcome is horrible .

I am absolutely not against the saying of thank you - in fact, it was my daughter's very first discernible word - but I want it to come spontaneously. Other phrases that come spontaneously can be just as - if not more - gratifying.

Caroline - I'm not in the business of rearing surly hunched-shouldered children, as I am sure you are not either , so don't really feel at all concerned by your example.

puddle · 18/10/2007 11:26

I would add not interrupting when other people are talking, and waiting your turn rather than barging past people to desirable for 4+.

And for me, thank you letters are essential rather than nice to have .

Agree with those who have said that it is extremely important to model good manners to children and treat them with the same respect you would give a grown up.

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 11:30

Bink - I think there is a huge difference between learning-by-copying (very desirable) and parroting (vile). Not the same learning process at all.

morningglory · 18/10/2007 11:35

Hmm, "Your welcome" doesn't bother me because I think that it is nice to have a thank you acknowledged. What else are you supposed to say?

My silly pet peeve is children who say "I want". I don't know why it irritates me so much..probably reminds me of something Veruka Salt would say. Implies entitlement I think.

Caroline1852 · 18/10/2007 11:46

I am stopping being distracted now by Anna's gosh, yummy, goings on (did she leave Blighty in the 1940s? or is she perhaps a bit squiffy?).

An absolute must in my book is looking at the person who is talking to you/you are talking to. This is really hard for shy children unfortunately, but it is essential.

Caroline1852 · 18/10/2007 11:50

Anna - funnily enough, my daughter's first word was thank - she forgot the you. Second was apple. Third was George (which she says with a ch on the end like church).

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 11:53

Caroline - I used to love it when my daughter had finished a breastfeed and came off and said "Thank you Mummy". I certainly never taught her to do that - it was completely spontaneous

Journey · 18/10/2007 11:53

Agree with Anna. "You're welcome" is horrible. For a start if it isn't said in the correct tone it can sound rather cheeky. I also find it slightly creepy (grin) because it is too much like a child trying to be an adult.

Although manners are essential what I hate are little kids who use manners to hide up there not so nice side! They think just because they've said "please", "thank you" etc they can do what they want behind your back. To me a big smile of appreciation from a child is worth far more than an abrupt "thank you".

I also hate children who correct another person's manners. Which ironically is the height of ill manners!

I think teaching children to be considerate of others is essential for older children. As opposed to just focusing on the verbal manners. They've got to mean what they say. Alternatively if they don't e.g. they didn't enjoy a meal someone gave them then they need to be aware that that person has put a lot of effort into providing it so they should be considerate towards their hard work and respond accordingly.

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 11:55

Journey - yes. Just because someone has said "please" doesn't necessarily mean they are being polite or considerate. It hides a multitude of sins IMO.

Journey · 18/10/2007 11:56

Don't know why "kids" and "training" are in hyperlinks!

saadia · 18/10/2007 11:56

This business of holding knives and forks in whichever hand - what difference does it make??? DH always accuses me of holding them incorrectly but who actually decided how they should be held? Can't believe it bothers people.

Anna8888 · 18/10/2007 11:58

saadia - I agree, the holding of knives and forks is more protocol than manners.

Protocol is, however, a necessary part of life. People judge you (and give you jobs and other life opportunities) based on your knowledge of protocol.

Caroline1852 · 18/10/2007 12:06

Journey - I agree. My son used to play with a girl who had impeccable manners, she was delightful - right down to her velvet ribbons. Unfortunately she was also a kleptomaniac and used to go home with Gameboy games. lego etc stuffed down her tights.

TwigorTreat · 18/10/2007 12:07

ok now I'm confused anna .. protocol is important but manners aren't?

Original poster
morningpaper · 18/10/2007 12:07

I don't think I have missed a job opportunity because I hold my knife terribly, but I may be wrong.

Anna, your theory that genuine gratitude is more important than "thank you" is all very well (actually I think it is rubbish but) but how exactly would you ENFORCE it? Or would you not? I mean, you can't say "Oi, rude child, I just passed you a cake and you did not LOOK or SEEM grateful?" Whereas reinforcing the response of "thank you" is quite easy to do.

If you child is passed a cake by a well-meaning old lady like myself, what response would you require? Or is no response acceptable? And if they offered no response, except to take the said cake, what would you say, if anything?

(I am trying to work out the practicalities of your system.)

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