I am SO fed up with todder politcs. Kids hit. They wind each other up. Its life.

[Fonk]

We as parents sort it out and discipline as we feel best for the kid.

Sometimes this will not be in front of everyone. I am not going to scream at my 3 yo because it gives a middle aged woman with a sobbing PFB sactisfaction. I will discipline in my own way, in my own time. I know what works for my kid.

It doesn't mean we don't care.

What really really gets me, more than anything, is when this translates into bad feeling between parents.

IME, when a kid hits another, the parent of the hitter feels like crap and they actually could do with a bit of support too. not so much a whispering campaign.

And it is exhausting

oh I hate soft play and am in a foul mood, and don't get why this week, as soon as I spend a second with dd, ds has to whack the nearest older girl in a frilly dress with a bouncer father. Actually I do but-aargh

(its filly btw.)

I don't want to see another child reduced to tears, etc. I don't think it is unreasonable however to expect a parent to speak to their child immediately after such an incident (esp where the other child has been upset over it) - hitting, bitting, snatching, etc - to say "no, we don't do that; you hurt/upset that other child" and, if relelvant, to be removed, snatched iten removed from hands, or 2 minutes time out, whatever works for that parent/child. I don't need an apology as I haven't been injured, hurt or upset. But my child has been, and we shouldn't allow our children to cause distress to others and think it is okay, surely?

Some parents do sadly completely ignore it when their child hits, etc. though.

I had an interesting reverse of this once. Ds was bitten by another child, both of them aged about 3. Child's mother saw, but did nothing and said nothing. Let's assume charitably that she was going to deal with it later. Anyway, ds was a bit annoyed, and said to the other child 'you shouldn't bite, it's naughty'. Other child ignored him, so he said it again, then appealed to me for support. I murmured something soothing. And the the other mother asked me to tell ds to leave her son alone. I ended up apologising to her. Ds says 'but Mummy, he bit me', and the other woman goes off in a huff.

I can't help feeling I rather short changed my ds that time.

I should add that my ds has been a biter as well as a bitee. I know it from both sides...

Message withdrawn

One person's look of horror is another person's dirty look

WTF is a DIRTY look anyway

I think it is in the paranoid eye of the lookee

As my pfb is a biter who was bitten I have been on both sides. He's only 20 months so I try and intervene before he bites and not give him too much negative attention. He did bite one girl on the forehead at swimming when I turned my back for a second, the mother wailed and gnashed her teeth so much she frightened her DD more than my son did.

I dealt with it at the time and apologised to her and her daughter. When I asked how her daughter was the next week (she had healed ok) she made me feel so uncomfortable and implied it was because of our bad parenting he was biting. I'm sure her DD will do something once then she will know how it is to been on the other side. They are only babies still, they don't understand what they've done.

Filly, so how would you feel about another parent disciplining your child? If you don't appear to be doing anything about it. I intervene straight away. I wouldn't tell off the other child in any way different to how I would my own, I'm not into humiliation or other OTT reactions. It's only happened once with my DD. I can't remember how I used to be with DS, probably the same, especially as at the time I wasn't reading on parenting websites about other people's sensibilities about disciplining children.

Basically, I agree with Edam. Other parents can't guess how you deal with things. Maybe you will speak to your child at a later date but maybe my own child needs to see there and then that hitting/biting etc are really not acceptable of anyone.

Ah have I told my swing story??

We went to a playpark, me with ds1. He was 5 I think. He had a little routine at the park which was swing on the tyre, then go down the slide, then do whatever. I go to that park because 9 times out of 10 it is empty. We arrived and a girl of about the same age was there just before us, and went on the tyre swing. Uh oh I thought, and tried to get him back in the car, no chance. So I tried to get him on the slide. No chance. His rule is "I go on the tyre swing before doing anything else". So we had a scrap next to the tyre swing - I was concerned that he would try and climb on top of the girl, or shove her to one side. I wrestled him away, he ran back. And the girl went swing swing swing. He threw himself on the ground and headbutted the floor, then bit himself. Each time I tried to put my hand in the way. He finally settled on screaming and hitting himself repeatedly on the chin. I tried to get him back to the car and couldn't. The mother of the girl stared at him as if she'd trodden on something, the girl tried to get off and the mother said "no you stay on there", and so this went on for ooh about 10 minutes. Eventaully the girl was allowed off the swing. DS1 got on - went swing swing swing, for all of about 10 seconds, jumped off, did his slide routine then peace was restored.

Oh yes hell certainly is other mothers.

tatt you say : "He hits because he has been spoilt rotten and he thinks he's the centre of the universe"

I spoil my son rotten too and think he is the centre of the universe, but he isn't an aggressive child.

I do take him to one side CONSISTENTLY and tell him he mustn't snatch toys. Being consistent is crucial with any child at any age.

No one knows what the reason is for a toddler that hits or bites, etc. I can't understand why you are so sure about the reason, tatt.

Now, if a 15 year old always hits, bites is physically/verbally aggressive, I would be more inclined to think that the parents aren't doing enough.

Agree with that yellowrose.

I know why ds1 pinches (adults luckily on the whole, occasionally siblings)- its for lots of reasons, sometimes its for sensory stuff (he pinches himself for that reason as well), sometimes its to get attention, and sometimes its because he thinks its funny.

Stopping it is a different matter. I don't think we could have put any more thought/effort into stopping it/discussion with others for ideas though.

cristina, I've said this now 9 or 10 times but am saying it again cos i am fond of you

I am NOT not disciplining my kid at the scene. actually, reading these posts, I am one of the stricter parents, though I am questioning WHY I am doing this. Is it becuase I think its best for ds or because I want to be acccepted by the other parents? I am starting to think its the latter. I KNOW ds will respond better after a cooling off period and in private, I KNOW this, I am just not doing it because I don't feel able to.

I have deliberately NOT said what I do becuase, IMO, that isn't the debate. Yes you apologise etc. Its good manners.

And regardless, my kids don't really hit kids outside the family, last week aside when ds hit on 4 bloody occasions.

No, what is unsettling me is that adult women seem to want to know that another person's child is being punished for something, when they know naff all about that kid or their circumstances, personality or anything.

And also, really, who cares? If my kids are hit, and they are usually the ones hit, I don't care if the other kid is told off or not really. We just get on with it. And feel happy it wasn't us being sad and angry enough to lash out.

Filly, I do agree you don't have to actually descipline at the scene. I just tell him he mustn't do, X, Y, Z because there is absolutely no way that at 2.8 yo he would remember what the hell I am talking about if I wait until I get home.

It's like when we are the park. He somehow manages to walk into every darn mud puddle he can find ! I keep telling him as and when he does it that he must try not to walk into mud and get his clothes dirty, but he STILL does it. Yesterday he fell face down into a mud puddle, the only child around that managed to do that ! We used about a whole pack of wipes, I said please try not to do that again, and continued to play.

If we get home and I tell him, there is no way he would remember what happend an hour ago.

Of course, you are right about the don't do everything to please other parents. I do notice some people rant and rave and shout at their kids for the benefit of other parents. That is wrong.

Consistency. That is my favourite word !

Agree Filly.

I know that everyone says they make an exception for SN, but I do wonder how good people are at recognising it. For example Becky's scenario sounds like it could have been a case of SN (not saying it was) mainly because it is quite unusual for a child not to respond at all if another child challenges them (for example if ds3 hits ds2, ds2 tells him off and then ds3 shouts back). Ignoring a child talking to them isn't unheard of, but is unusual, which then makes some sense of the other mother asking Becky's little boy (who sounds like he wasn't doing anything wrong) to leave her son alone. If it was a case of SN it doesn't excuse the bite, or the mum not being more involved wiith the aftermath of the bite, but it does perhaps provide some explanation.

Maybe he wasn't and maybe the mother jjust didn't care less, but I think it can be hard to tell. The woman in the park who kept her dd on the swing when ds1 was headbutting the ground and hitting herself looked like a perfectly reasonable mother (although I could merrily have throttled her right then). She was caring towards her dd and obviously just didn't clock that ds1 had SN at all- even though his are severe- she presumably just thought he was a vile little boy.

I supose I would just tend to ensure my own child was comforted (unless they had a broken bone it would be along the lines of "you're OK", quick kiss and encourage to go back to playing. And tbh I really wouldn't care what the other person was doing. I get crosser if its someone I know who I think is being ineffecitve and wimpy, but with strangers too many whats, ifs and maybes.

gah- preview- hitting himself!

Sorry, I should add he actively seeks mud puddles. He didn't just fall by accident, he always walks into mud because he thinks it is fun, which I bet it is at his age, but not much fun for poor mummy who has to go home and do lots of laundry !

Anyway...

I think the big thing for me is that I do tend to assume everyone parents to the best of their ability really

so if someone is appearing to be crap, theres probably a good reason

Filly ? thanks for repeating again for me, I hadn?t understood that you don?t discipline at all at the scene. I think it?s thoughtful towards the other child who was hit or bitten to say at the time that hitting or biting aren?t acceptable. I don?t see what?s wrong with that. Costs you nothing, does no damage to your own child, you obviously think it goes over his head anyway, and this needs later special treatment, but might be of use to the other child. It could be something as simple as ?no, X, biting hurts and makes children sad? or something else you find non-traumatising for your child but meaningful enough for the other.

Re Alfie Kohn and his approach in such cases, I think he said to his kids that saying sorry makes other people happy or something like that, which gets round the social convenience part of it.

Oh, sorry, got it wrong again. You Do discipline at the scene. So where's the problem then? Oh, I'm in a muddle now.

May I point out that I did nothing that was not trying to keep the peace? I did not in any way support my son when he was telling the other boy he ought to apologise. In fact I told him to go off and play again. And I apologised to the other mother. But I do rather object to my son being made the villain of the piece.

Children bite, but they also know that they shouldn't, and it isn't any worse for a child to point that out than it is to bite in the first place.

hmm.

I do think its counterproductive for ds actually. It puts him on the defensive. Whereas if I waited, I reckon we could do more re working through scenarios.

another problem I recountered last week was that I was angry with ds, and so not disciplining effectively.

but it comes back to WHY should it be courteous for another parent to see me tell my kid off? I actually can't see a logical reason for that. Apology from me, yes. Apology from ds if possibke, yes. (he normally does his sponteneously).

oh I'm just saying we should all be more supportive really cristina

there's no problem

my kids don't normally hit, but ds was sickening for what I am hoping is not sodding chickenpox last week, and I saw life as the parent of a repeated hitter, and was a bit shocked really at how hellish it was.

and felt the need to share

thankfully, though still sick, he's cheery again

got to say that i would say something if my 3 yo hit another child.

its not socially acceptable - yes they do it. but as a parent its our job to teach them not to.

and rather like dogs - if you leave it until later to admonish them in your own way - whatever method you use - there isn't a great likelyhood that the kid will get the link.

so no - you dont have to ball and shout - smack shit out of your kid. or leave - but a firm "no" - whats wrong with that.

sorry you've had a shit day btw - if its all too much - just dont put yourself in that situation. it ends up with you feeling crap -s tay at home and bollocks to the M&T groups

I didn't say you did BBS- I just said it might be an explanation for the rather odd exchange. I didn't say you should have done anything differently. I just said it was unusual for a child to blank another child and that maybe that meant something else was going on (ds1 blanks all children- which was why your bit about the child ignoring your son hopped out at me). I wasn't suggesting that anything different should have been done, just suggesting something that might explain the unusual behaviour of the boy and the odd behaviour of the mother (because asking your son to leave her son alone sounds odd as well, but is something I've quite often wished I could say to well meaning children that ds1 is doing his best to ignore). Of course she should have done something about the biting, but maybe she missed it, maybe she was just crap at dealing with it. If the child had SN then he wouldn't necessarily have known he shouldn't bite. DS1 has zero comprehension that he should wait his turn for something and he's 7.

Tthe mother at the park I went to with ds1 obviously acted the way she did (I presume) because she didn't notice that my son had SN- even though I think a 5 year old being unable to talk is very obvious- in that case I can only assume it wasn't.

Fonk, you sound like you're having a bad week and I can empathise about being embarrassed by our children's behaviour at times.

However, I do think that we, as parents, need to discipline a child immediately when it hits and that if you choose not to, then the other parent is perfectly entitled to do so. What I think happens when a child isn't disciplined when it hits is it sends a message out to the child that?s just been clobbered that it's acceptable and that it's more important that the parent of the hitter isn't embarrassed than that the poor victim gets an apology or can see that those around them think that it isn't acceptable behaviour...if they can't see the parents sorting it out the only thing a child of that age can do to retaliate is hit back, which isn't a particularly desirable outcome. If I was the other child's parent I'd feel fairly annoyed and upset if the child wasn't disciplined in any way.

Young children don't remember hours later what they've done and so delayed punishment is rarely effective. You say that you discipline in private because 'you know what works for your kid'....the fact that he's still going round hitting people suggests that maybe this method isn't working so well.

I can see you're having a bad day, so hate to wade in rather than be supportive, but I couldn't disagree more with your stance on this - sorry.