I am SO fed up with todder politcs. Kids hit. They wind each other up. Its life.

[Fonk]

We as parents sort it out and discipline as we feel best for the kid.

Sometimes this will not be in front of everyone. I am not going to scream at my 3 yo because it gives a middle aged woman with a sobbing PFB sactisfaction. I will discipline in my own way, in my own time. I know what works for my kid.

It doesn't mean we don't care.

What really really gets me, more than anything, is when this translates into bad feeling between parents.

IME, when a kid hits another, the parent of the hitter feels like crap and they actually could do with a bit of support too. not so much a whispering campaign.

And it is exhausting

oh I hate soft play and am in a foul mood, and don't get why this week, as soon as I spend a second with dd, ds has to whack the nearest older girl in a frilly dress with a bouncer father. Actually I do but-aargh

(its filly btw.)

but do you actually know hitting etc is likely to happen?

ds has hit 4 times in the last week (we were out every day, so thats not actually even every day)

to be fair he was sometimes retailating so its more that he got into fights. Usually he doesn't.

now I am a bit by this, but really, I couldn't predict any given incident, especially since he isn't normally a hitter.

So what do you do? Stay in the house on the offchance that your kid will hit?

We do expect too much of them, I think sometimes. Stuff like sharing is a big trigger. But everyone has different rules on sharing, and everyone thinks theirs is right. So kids get very mixed messages. What do you do?

kitty no no. dont agree with you on that one.

"Dh and I are very much into teaching by "example". He WILL learn to say sorry because he sees us saying sorry.

When I say to a parent or child sorry when ds snatches a toy (he never lashes out physically and doesn't bite) I actually mean it. If DS said it at his age he wouldn't mean it."

Yellowrose I respect your attitude and think it will pay off in the long run.

I think if your child is in a phase of biting / hitting then of course you should continue to go to activities but that you should be shadowing them pretty closely. If that isn't possible because of your other children or for whatever reason then I do agree that it is unfair to expose the other children to it. I agree you can't always predict but in situations where it happens again and again you can predict it and you need to be preventing it rather than reacting to it.

I am rather biased about this because I saw the effect that a series of serious bites had on the children and parents at a group I run. I think biting is much more upsetting because it causes immediate and long lasting damage, the injury looks extremely nasty and the act itself is quite, erm, well vicious I suppose. I am not trying to upset parents of children who have bitten others - but I am sure you can see what I mean. I am not trying to imply that a biting child is vicious or intending to be vicious. But it can do a LOT of damage as opposed to hitting, which from a 2 year old, usually can't.

ok heres the thing

if you have more than one child close in age, often you just can't shadow yours pretty closely. You just can't.

so that does mean that, while kids are going through this phase, the whole family can't go out.

For some kids, eg ones with SN, this might be permenant.

I don't know what the solution is. I don't think other kids should get hit.

But in these situations I tend towards support of parents, and their need to be out in the community, I think.

You can't expect people with children who hit not to go to soft play etc. Those parents need to be more vigilant, not just go to sit back and read the paper. However it is not always possible to be completely on your child's back.What if you have other children with you, which is usually the case. Perhaps a newborn who needs bf, another toddler who needs taking to the toilet. I would be fine for another adult to tell my child off if they saw them hitting. I have intervened and told children I didn't know off for unacceptable behaviour. A bit of collective responsibility is probably a good thing.

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I tend to avoid soft play areas and p/t places. I'm over self conscious. I transform into a sergeant, in fear of possible criticism from other parents. I do agree that aggressive behaviour should be dealt with immediately. But I agree, too much diplomacy is expected around children.

Filly I don't know the answer but think that this is a time when we need the support of parents in the community around us, yes. I would imagine one solution would be to enlist help from a friend who was finding life easier and get her to help either with shadowing or looking after your other children. I would hope in a situation where people could see you were distracted by your other child or whatever that they would be understanding. I think we do need to be seen to take responsibility for our children's potential to inflict harm though and be seen to be taking steps to avoid it.

Pruni, 50% is not bad I don't think many people would criticise if they could see you were trying to prevent it?

i do think one big difference between kids is when they seem to start to reason, and since we don't actually generally KNOW each other

I also think that in the last week I have been parenting by embarassment and knee jerkery, rather than having thought it all through, and am conscious it is not good to do this.

oh franny

I love the idea of enlisting the help of a supportive friend

where would I get one of those then?

most of my friends have MORE kids than me and see me as a bit of an amateur

has this thing kicked off yet?

aaargh am not trying to be narky franny

oh am going to my allotment now

My 2.5yr old DD went through the phase of being the target of 3 boys (just so happens that all the rest of my mum-friends have boys) - one had the tendency to hit her, the other pull her hair, and the other bite.
It used to get quite upsetting for me. She was being attacked very often and the pain was real to her.
It didn't matter if they said sorry (I understood all along that they are toddlers and that they hit, and that, someday, DD will be guilty of these actions too) but it didn't make it any less upsetting for me to see my DD in so much pain.
But what made it easier for me, I have to say, was that their mums mdae the effort to correct that (ie, reprimand them, make them apologise, etc).
PS - The phase is over now and DD loves being with them, but she tends to remember (and 'dislike') the one who bit. She mentions it all the time ... I can only conclude that biting inflicts a far graver pain and emotional effect on the victim than hiting.

ok pruni

Yellowrose, agree that saying sorry yourself is important; if they see you modelling good behaviour, they will copy. I've always been careful to say 'sorry' to ds if it's appropriate, for instance. Used to get a few raised eyebrows when he was very small but I thought it was important to acknowledge he is a person too.

And fillyjonk is right about teaching even small children that we say sorry because it makes the other person feel better.

My ds has bitten, hit blah blah and been on the receiving end too. I do think that parents should intervene if their child is hurting another child, though I don't expect profuse apologies at all. My experience is that 99% of the time I'm going 'no, no, honestly, it's OK, they all do it! Don't worry' because parents are so keen to show they care. I think we often misread the way small children communicate using body language anyway so pitch in when we aren't needed in bloodless competition for toys or taking turns.
But I do think if you know for sure that your child is going through a phase where they bite/hair pull/hit a lot, then in general it is your responsibility to supervise more closely. Because my son has social difficulties I always stay with him at birthday parties, which is pretty bloody dull, I can tell you, and I'd much prefer to go to a cafe or pop to the shops for a couple of hours.

Good point edam, I am a bit clumsy sometimes, ds bumps into me or I step on his foot or something, always by me being really apologetic. I think he knows what I am doing, such a silly clumsy mummy

Words are very powerful. Please don't think I am discounting words. They do have to hear that bad behaviour is not on the cards.

Also true about doing things to make others feel better. Very true. I do tell ds that he musn't snatch BECAUSE he is upsetting the other child. Always. I hope he can learn to use words the same way one day.

At 2.8 (bilingual late speaker) there isn't always much he can say. Once he is older I hope he can very articulate.

I'm jolly clumsy too, Yellowrose, cue lots of ds yelling 'you HURT me, mummy' and lots of apologies (and 'well, I wouldn't have stepped on you if you hadn't moved right behind me where I couldn't see you'...)

Didn't think you were being narky, at all, Filly. I wasn't trying to suggest the friend thing was the solution for you, just that it was one possible solution in this situation.

I am trying not to be an annoying, unrealistic, mother of a PFB. Not succeeding mightily, am I?

AS the mum of a dd (4)who is tiny for her age, physically vulnerable due to visual probs and with a clotting blood issue that leads to easy large bruising - I watch her like a hawk in social situations and am quick to intervene if she is at risk of even being pushed.
neither of mine have ever hit or bitten, I'd be appalled if they did, although I feel that I'm not giving them them life coping skills sometimes.

My job is to protect my kids as much as I can, it's up to other parents to discipline their kids as they see fit...

edam - lol - they DO always get in the way !

ahh piffle- a good point. When ds2 and ds3 were babies/small (well ds3 still is) they were often around children who had the potential to do considerable harm (severe learning difficulties). I felt it was very much my job to watch them (not just the mother's of the child with SN), and in cases where I couldn't give appropriate supervision (one friend for example had 2 children wtih SN, but wasn't that hot on supervision herself- her 8 year old dd used to do a good line on sitting on babies- not noticing they were there- and shoving toddlers over because she didn't particularly like them- her dd2 used to like pinching with ds1 thought was funny so he would pinch her-god it was chaos- anyway that's an example) then I wouldn't go.

We rarely go anywhere public playwise with ds1, certainly don't go if its busy- he doesn't attack but he doesn't always notice others so you end up with the jellybean scenario described earler. He misses out but so do ds2 and ds3, which I always think is a shame.

RE biting- luckily none of mine have ever been biters (except ds1 who bites himself), but it is just the same to a child as shoving or snatching. Unforunately some young children with autism/ADHD can bite for years, which means their mothers a) end up housebound and b) the child is never in situations where they can learn appropriate social skills. Because of the delay in diagnosis of HFA/ADHD mothers can end up completely isolated with very limited professional help (even with a dx professional help is limited but at least they can access SN playgroups where they exist- and other mothers of children with SN who can be more understanding if little Johnny is bitten- knowing that there for the grace etc... ). I was never in that position but have seen people going through it for years and years and years. Awful for all.

jesus god, it goes without saying surely that you intervene?

is anyone advocating letting kids beat each other up? I hope not!

having said that-mums of 2+ will agree, I hope-kids play up when you are not watching for a second. when you are feeding baby #2 or chatting, for a moment, to a friend you haven't seen since school.

ALL I am saying really is that when they do hit, as, really, they all do, sorry-

a. parents of the kid should not be treated as a pariah

and

b. the kid should not be treated as a pariah

thats all, tbh

anyone thinking such things don't happpen, congrats on your lovely p/t group/friends.

anyway ds seems to have gotten over this one, he was lovely again today. it occured to me though-wtf do you do if you have TWO hitters/biters?

I think that all children are precious whether they are first born or the youngest of six!

I don't expect a child to be forced to apologise or be reduced to tears. However I would be angry if the child was happy and smiling. Personally I think being taken straight home from the soft play area or not being forced to sit with a parent and not play if there are other well behaved sibling is the best course of action. Ie. If a child can't behave then the privilage of the soft play is removed.

Special needs is a difficult area. It depends a lot on the condition the child has. My son had orthopedic problems when he was young and he is partically deaf due to glue ear. However all children need boundaries which are reasonable to their development.