Something very wrong with 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

[Chislemum]

Something is clearly very wrong with our 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

The biggest concern for us is the difference between the nursery setting and the outside nursery setting in both language and behaviour. He is the youngest in the class (August 12) and was used to one to one (Mum and Nannies) until September.

Outside nursery: DS is a bit shy (just like my husband), but happy and chatty. He mixes languages but speaks in full sentences (you can have a proper conversation)., is very playful with us and the Nanny, and is becoming more and more confident; eg. very confident outdoors and in swimming lessons, happy and playing with (not alongside) other children in playdates and also okay in the hustle and bustle of of his swimming class. He is intuitive and caring and always knows when people are sad, etc. He is also cuddly and loves dancing with his Nanny and is very keen on animals, play-doh, story time and all types of vehicles.

Inside the nursery: Nursery teacher tells me he can't speak at all. When he speaks (he has to report his news in front of all the other children and then doesn't want to say much), then the teacher says he talks gibberish and looks away when she talks to him. He seems to only want to play with cars and doesn't talk to other children. However, he is confident outdoors and we had several comments in his little book that he was "chatty" with his friends with doesn't quite tally. We were also told that he can't sit still for long (which he can do at home) and became "fidgety" after 40 minutes in their recent church assembly.

A relative who knows DS well is a primary school teacher and confirms that he is shy and a bit behind with his English "as to be expected for a bilingual child" but not concerned that he is any special needs issues such as autism. Relative works in a "deprived" area and has worked with autistic, special needs etc children and many bilinguals. She also says that the DS' nursery seems to be "hothousing", i.e. learning things they would only cover in reception in the state sector. However, can this really make such a difference to him? He is doing fine with his letters when at home and now even ok with the teacher.

The Nanny, whom our son adores, says he is tensing up after nursery and doesn't want her to leave in the morning when she takes him there. He also told her (and us) repeatedly that he is scared of the teacher and hides from her in the toilet. In the morning he now asks whether it is a Mummy and Daddy day and when he is told it is a school day, he only says "oh". He has also told me that he wants to go to the "purple school in the fields where the children are happy" and not to his nursery. We just don't know where that is (he may have dreamt this up). What worries me most was that when I said to him that something was "normal", he looked very worried and said that "DS is not normal, no!". I have no idea why he would say that. He also has started to have recurring nightmares (last few weeks screaming "no" and shaking when he wakes). This is new since January.

His Nanny says he is a normal playful little boy and only 3.5 years old and she, in essence, thinks that we should consider moving him to another school (somewhere where "can be a child") and he would be fine and happy again. I can't be that easy.

How can we help him? It worries me how is changing so much and is so different at school. I have contacted a medical centre that specialises in special needs children but wanted to hear from other mothers.

@Footle Nursery told us he needs to work on this (eye contact with this Nursery teacher) since him avoiding her is "allegedly" a sign of him having issues (I am sure she means he is on some kind of spectrum). At the Christmas fete DS pulled DH out of a huge room full of people after he spotted the teacher. He also told us repeatedly he doesn't like her.

THANK YOU everyone. xxx

This happened with my son December last year. The nursery infuriated me and basically insinuated Autism. Now if my son needed help I would get him it, but I knew it was their problem not his as outside that setting he is more then fine.

Your son may just be shy, the bilingual thing may make that worse for him. Have you thought about removing him from nursery and having the nanny take him to play groups to socialise?

@moopymoodle I think our nursery is insinuating the very same. I already know from the relative who has worked with autistic children he doesn't have autism. I just feel so angry and helpless and also think he do not have his best interest in mind at all. How is your DS now?

meant to say " ...also think THEY do not have his best interest in mind"

Come to think of it, DS did that too, the looking away I mean.

I've suddenly had a memory pop up where he is just four, a little girl he doesn't know asked him something, and ..the above happened.

His expression was a mix of unease, embarrassment and/or sudden shyness.

Some of my grandchildren are bilingual and have had various wobbles at nursery age. All wobbles now resolved and all the children ( middle-aged children, oldest coming up to adolescence ) now beautifully bilingual. There's nothing abnormal about being bi- or multilingual, and don't let your husband or anyone else tell you there is.

The eye contact thing is terribly important. At this age it's nothing to do with manners, it's to do with his feeling uncomfortable about someone, and it has to be respected.

Please don't stop speaking your own language to your son.

Not for the obvious reason of giving him the gift of an important second language, or the intellectual boost conferred by bilingualism.

But for the far more important reason that German is your language and you are his mother.

People are different in their own language, no matter how well they speak additional languages. Even if they are so good in both languages that people of both nationalities believe they are native speakers (and don't realise that they have a second language).

Your son deserves to know the real you, being absolutely yourself. That's something he will never have if you stop speaking German to him.

Chisle I have nothing of knowledge to say with regard to bilingual children but when Dd first went to nursery she talked about the mean assistant I didn't pay much attention as up to that point Dd had only been cared for by her parents or her grandparents. She was first granchild everyone doted on her. Next month she will be 16 and a few weeks ago she was chatting to Ds1 and Dd2 about nursery. They all remember the same mean assistant, they all remember her name and they are 15,13 and 11.

I have only one piece of advice - listen to your child!!

I've been thinking about this thread all day. It's really upset me and I never get upset about threads!

I don't know if you have read Kate Gross' book, "Everything I Want To Tell You About This Magnificent Life"? In it there is a chapter that really resonated with me. She talks about how those very early years are like a bank; the more you invest with your love and security, the more the child will reap the rewards well into the future as they will feel protected and secure and thus have a confidence that comes with knowing you are loved unconditionally.

Your son is telling you something. Listen to him and help him so he knows that his thoughts and emotions are respected. He can't do this by himself, he needs you to step up for him. start with wiping the floor with that bloody teacher

By the way, I did laugh when you said your DH put the phone down when you told him what the MN verdict was. I love my DH to bits, but he would probably do the same if I started quoting MN!

Good luck!

I just remembered, I had a similar experience with a dodgy nursery when DS was younger. Your thread has brought it all back, how upsetting it was - I hadn't thought about it in years! Which is a good sign... Awful at the time but forgotten if you deal with it at the time. Sorry post turned a bit epic!

I think he was coming up to 3yrs, so a bit younger than your DS and it was the first formal childcare I'd ever put him in, so I wasn't sure what to expect, or how he should react etc. I knew things didn't feel easy, the clinging and crying, nightmares, and look of profound relief when I came to fetch him etc

I was taken aside one pick up time, positively jumped on with a surprise meeting to tell me they thought something was 'developmentally wrong' with him. He didn't speak at nursery, to them anyway, and of particular note he refused to reply to one of them or look them in the eye 'even when they knelt down at eye level and held his shoulders to face them' (!). I asked for more details and she was trying to make him answer her question 'do you want to come back with me (from an outing to the park) this afternoon?'

Another 'red flag' was that he stood at the door facing it for ages in the afternoon, with his back to everyone else and holding a book from home.

And another was that he rarely smiled.

Oh and that he tried to get out by holding other mummy's hands and going with them when they came to pick up their child.

They asked loads of questions that I felt ill equipped to deal with, and I went home shaking. Horrified of missed something in my darling boy.

After lots of cuddles and a nights sleep I regained my sense of mummy-ness, my confidence in my ability to know my child...

And realised that they saw labels and problems in my child.

And I saw unhappiness and problems in the setting.

He was miserable there, and expressing it in a developmentally appropriate way.

No smiling - do you smile if you don't like or trust the people around you? Three year olds don't tend to be up with the rules of fake social smiles...

Do you speak if you're so sad you'll cry and then get told off for crying? Do you speak to the people that are stopping you from getting out to go find your mummy?

Do you meet eyes when someone physically bigger is forcing you to? When I asked if he remembered that he said 'yes when miss xx wanted me to lie'... And I realised that as he really didn't want to return to the nursery, with her, he couldn't answer her as he was a very honest child and didn't want to lie. Tiny

Like a faithful pup he was waiting at the door for me, desperate to get out he was trying anyone who came to just get him away... Not that he 'wasn't showing carer attachment' ouch! And thanks unqualified nursery staff for giving me sleepless nights over that! I told a friend and when she'd finishing laughing she said maybe they had the wrong child. Oh and the book he was holding was a photo album with pictures from home poor little chap :(

It made my heart break that my poor little boy was showing unhappiness and desperation in every which way and I almost let those people pathologies his response to them. I asked a bit more about nursery, and it soon became clear he was failing to cope with being desperately unhappy 6 hrs a day.

What small child has the resilience and social maturity to resolve a complex social problem in which he is by definition powerless in being a small child...?

Resilience is not forged by exposing them to an emotional and social battering. That's the way to break a child.

Residence is built by good foundations of self esteem and emotional and social development.

Perhaps your partner has yet to learn that? Thank god a lot of educators know this and spend their lives building confidence and social skills in their charges, and feel proud when they jump and skip up to reception class, knowing they have the skills and tools to cope with that first (ginormous!) step into education.

It doesn't matter if the school is good or the nursery has a good reputation. One bad teacher is all it takes.

What's the reason to deliberately continue putting a tiny child in an environment which is breaking him?

Oh and the reason I can be SO definite about this, is that my wonderful, kind, gentle and funny boy is almost 6 and there's no doubt now about how clever he is either, just in case you thought I was avoiding mentioning that! I know being super bright doesn't equal an easy life, and I would have been just as happy and proud if he wasn't particularly into academics.

I would mention, as something to think about (ammunition for DH?), that very intelligent children are often correspondingly slower at emotional and social development. By secondary school age it's very (very!) broadly 1 yr forwards for IQ, 1 yr back for emotional & social development. So if there is stuff he finds hard/ needs support on it may be early signs of intellectual greatness (sorry that's very cod psychology, but based in truth, and definitely one to think about).

An example of that could be my DS... I stumbled on a (retrospectively) funny thing the other day which has been quickly corrected: he thought he was doing very badly at maths and had told me so, I consoled, was slightly confused as I thought he was doing well, and then he let slip he thought this because 'the teacher always stared at him in maths class then gave him another sheet or two to do when nobody else had to... So in his head, 'he must be being punished for doing badly'. The silly moppet, those turn out to be extension sheets for children who whip through the first ones Tousles hair of child!

Anyway, I'm waffling (work avoiding actually, ahem!), those convincing 'red flags' that knocked me for six that day in nursery were nothing more than an exercise in putting two and two together to make 556. And as DS would tell you, 'that's being silly mummy', clearly it's 4, and do you know what 4 and 4 make? And if you do the adding sign it's lower than the multiplying sign, lots and lots lower.... (Continue til your ears bleed!)

Your child sounds developmentally fine and utterly miserable.

I wouldn't force my child to endure misery with a teacher he is frightened of, especially not at 3 years old when he doesn't even have to be there.

He only has you to stand up for him. His nanny is trying to, but it's up to you.

I have just arrived home from work (yes I spent the day on MN and worked too and got a lot done but on autopilot). Nanny told me that DS said today when failing to undo his shoes at the first attempt "I can't do it because I am not clever". The Nanny was shocked and almost didn't want to tell me. She also said when she arrived at school to pick him up the Nursery teacher took her to the side and said that DS cannot trace his name properly, something he has to do every morning at school. His name is 8 LETTERS long and not easy to write.

Also Nursery teacher went on about DS doesn't talk to other children but Nanny saw him through the window chatting to a boy he often mentions to us. When we had raised that name of the boy with the Nursery teacher, she said NO, he plays only on his own. Why on earth would she be lying and be so awful to a 3 year old?

Nursery teacher said he should practice to trace a simple line at home to see whether he could do that at least. However, we all call him by a short contraction of his name, bit like ALEX for ALEXANDER, so I don't know why he has to trace the whole name. He traces it beautifully at home, his nickname anyway and draws lovely pictures of cars as a three year old would anyway. Wobbly but you can see what it is. Also, he sometimes uses his left hand (I am left handed and my dad and maternal granddad were too) so he may not have decided which hand to use. I actually had issues at primary school with that initially: gosh brings back memories. My mum told the teacher off, back in 1979.

I think I have to do something. Half term now.... I am pondering what to do. In any case, do you think we should speak to the headteacher and ask what on earth is going on?

Is your husband so controlling that you cannot remove your son from this nursery without his consent?

What is more important, your husbands anger or your 3.5 yr sons emotional well being?

@MiscellaneousAssortment oh am crying now, my DS is like a little pup too, so cuddly and loving. Will have a proper sit down with DH over weekend and see how we can deal with things.

Miscellaneous - there's a lot of interesting stuff in your post and I hope the OP finds it helpful. But it is utter tosh to say that there is any correlation at all between children being ahead academically and behind emotionally. Utter rubbish.

@OzzieFem DH wants DS to do well in life and I think he is worried the nursery might tell any new school our DS is "weird" and that DS would be labelled.

DH is also a little shell-shocked by the nurseries disregard of the rules concerning a potential referral to the early years intervention (she did not follow the rules I called the relevant department) and how the nursery went from "he is settling in well" to "he is weird" since November.

We just don't know how to deal with this, to be honest.

Tracing letters at 3? Why on earth?

Can you imagine that in German kindy? They'd think you'd gone bonkers. They think DS is a genius because he can count to 20

meant to say "shell-shocked by the nursery's disregard".

My DD didn't decide which hand she prefered to use until starting school. Your DS sounds like a lovely little boy. Imagine going to work every day and being told you are stupid for not doing xyz. He is already starting to believe he isn't good enough/clever enough by one horrible bitch of an adult constantly making him feel that way. Of course he wants to hide from her/not speak or make eye contact. She is hugely dominant and he has told you in no uncertain terms that he is afraid of her.
Like many on this thread, if it was my child I would of knocked the bitch out there is no way he would be going back after half term.

What does a previous poster find amusing about a husband who hangs up on his wife when she tells him she has found support and information on a forum of experienced parents ?

Also, early on in the thread, OP , you mentioned a helpline you called which told you he was at the wrong nursery.

Who will your husband listen to ? You really can't leave your son in this hostile environment. It reminds me of another sad thread recently where a head teacher was telling a four year old that he might have to expel him for being restless during a double maths lesson.

The whole environment sounds wrong to me. Speaking to the head isn't going to change the whole culture of the school overnight. I can't see how things will change for your DS.

My DS is 3.5, goes to nursery a few days a week whilst I'm at work. He is not particularly interested in writing/drawing at the moment. He doesn't really draw anything recognisable and can only really do one letter of his name. What is the point of making a 3 yr old trace their name every morning? Sounds a very dull way to start each day! For contrast, at my DSs nursery, each morning the staff have set up what the call a "provocation" which is something really interesting to engage the children. It can be all sorts of different things, using different objects, materials, tools, anything to interest the children. The children are then encouraged to respond to it, and the staff support them through exploring the material. Any academic learning is done as part of this process. Sometimes when I drop him off, the things they have set up look so interesting I want to stay and explore them! My DS loves going to nursery and is very happy there.

There are so many better settings than the one you've described. I honestly think you just need to cur your losses and move him asap. Why prolong an unpleasant and negative experience?

@ewbank oh yes, DS is also "bad at numbers". He can count quite well at home but again - of course - not at school. Nanny said, that the Nursery teacher seems to find fault with everything. Everyday something new he can't do. I am upset he said he was not clever. Just this morning he told me was not normal. What on earth are they doing? Are they incompetent, lazy or plain "nasty" as DS said himself?!

One of the helplines I called said that there was no need to create a problem where there wasn't one.... hmm, can't remember which one Have been on phone to the world and his wife since the teacher spoke to us last Friday.

We are all flabbergasted to be honest. My parents back home are outraged and basically sound like MN. My brother (also living in my home country) is angry and wants to come over and have a word with the teacher. His godchildren are 6 and are doing the same stuff at their primary school DS has to do at nursery.

Oh it all just sounds like a car crash. Don't send him back there. Can you keep him at home until you find something else?

You must stop saying things like people will think "he is weird" - if your D's did have something going on developmentally then that doesn't make him weird. Children with additional needs are not weird.

I also think you need to remember that just because someone has worked with children with autism that doesn't make them qualified to diagnose your son.

Miscellaneous - the 1 up intellectually/1 down emotionally thing is hooey. Your experience sounds dreadful, and it sounds as though thibgs were done very badly.......but sometimes preschools/nursery's do have to call in parents and flag up concerns, and suggest referring to outside agencies because of concerns they have. If they do it should obviously be done in the correct way, and would involve qualified preschool staff and a qualified senco.