Something very wrong with 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

[Chislemum]

Something is clearly very wrong with our 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

The biggest concern for us is the difference between the nursery setting and the outside nursery setting in both language and behaviour. He is the youngest in the class (August 12) and was used to one to one (Mum and Nannies) until September.

Outside nursery: DS is a bit shy (just like my husband), but happy and chatty. He mixes languages but speaks in full sentences (you can have a proper conversation)., is very playful with us and the Nanny, and is becoming more and more confident; eg. very confident outdoors and in swimming lessons, happy and playing with (not alongside) other children in playdates and also okay in the hustle and bustle of of his swimming class. He is intuitive and caring and always knows when people are sad, etc. He is also cuddly and loves dancing with his Nanny and is very keen on animals, play-doh, story time and all types of vehicles.

Inside the nursery: Nursery teacher tells me he can't speak at all. When he speaks (he has to report his news in front of all the other children and then doesn't want to say much), then the teacher says he talks gibberish and looks away when she talks to him. He seems to only want to play with cars and doesn't talk to other children. However, he is confident outdoors and we had several comments in his little book that he was "chatty" with his friends with doesn't quite tally. We were also told that he can't sit still for long (which he can do at home) and became "fidgety" after 40 minutes in their recent church assembly.

A relative who knows DS well is a primary school teacher and confirms that he is shy and a bit behind with his English "as to be expected for a bilingual child" but not concerned that he is any special needs issues such as autism. Relative works in a "deprived" area and has worked with autistic, special needs etc children and many bilinguals. She also says that the DS' nursery seems to be "hothousing", i.e. learning things they would only cover in reception in the state sector. However, can this really make such a difference to him? He is doing fine with his letters when at home and now even ok with the teacher.

The Nanny, whom our son adores, says he is tensing up after nursery and doesn't want her to leave in the morning when she takes him there. He also told her (and us) repeatedly that he is scared of the teacher and hides from her in the toilet. In the morning he now asks whether it is a Mummy and Daddy day and when he is told it is a school day, he only says "oh". He has also told me that he wants to go to the "purple school in the fields where the children are happy" and not to his nursery. We just don't know where that is (he may have dreamt this up). What worries me most was that when I said to him that something was "normal", he looked very worried and said that "DS is not normal, no!". I have no idea why he would say that. He also has started to have recurring nightmares (last few weeks screaming "no" and shaking when he wakes). This is new since January.

His Nanny says he is a normal playful little boy and only 3.5 years old and she, in essence, thinks that we should consider moving him to another school (somewhere where "can be a child") and he would be fine and happy again. I can't be that easy.

How can we help him? It worries me how is changing so much and is so different at school. I have contacted a medical centre that specialises in special needs children but wanted to hear from other mothers.

Your ds sounds like a delight! If the issues is only evident in one setting (the nursery) then I would certainly feel like what is going on is a setting that is a poor fit with him. And a nursery that expected 3.5 year olds to sit still at church for 40 mins would be a bad fit for most children, I'd say! It sounds to me like he is feeling uncomfortable and not supported at the nursery - and that the nursery are doing nothing to move towards him, and encourage him to feel happy and loved there. So of course he's not going to be 'at his best'

A good nursery, with genuine concerns, would I'm sure be really happy to talk you through the reasons for their concerns, talk through the strategies that might help with those issues (e.g. does he have a key worker who he has bonded with? Could they give him a bit more attention? Could he have some less pressurised spaces to talk/express his opinion, and have a break from the circle time talk (which sounds hellish for a shy child who may feel less confident in one language)

Honestly, I would move him, and then reassess.If the problem goes away, it wasn't a problem. If the new nursery also find issues (nothing you've said would make me think they will...), then I bet they'll have better solutions/ideas than this one!

It sounds awful. He should be playing and having a lovely time, instead he is being intimidated and being put on the spot. It does sound like they are hot housing him, and not in a nice encouraging way.

Nothing you say about him sounds alarming, but everything you say about the nursery does.

Is there anywhere else near you that you could move him to? Do you get your 15 hours to use somewhere?

Honestly, this should be a carefree time in his life, he should be coming home with random stuff glued together and grass stains on all his clothes.

Honestly? Just take him out and move him to a nurturing environment. He's 3.5 - they shouldn't be trying to teach him formally. He should be playing and learning social skills. You are not being "that" parent that can't accept criticism. Also, they're not actually offering you a way forward, rather they are insinuating that your DS has a problem, where he actually sounds like a lovely normal little boy! It's ok to realise that an environment isn't suitable and move on. It's not a weakness, it's a strength to recognise when things aren't working.

To be honest the nursery sounds awful. Children learn through play, not 40 minute church services, standing up in front of others to talk etc. There are many adults that would not feel comfortable doing either of those, let alone a 3 year old.
You say he is fine out side - possibly because that is where he is allowed to explore, enjoy playing and not be put under pressure.
You know he is absolutely fine with you. I think you simply need to find a more nurturing, play based nursery ASAP.

Yes - sorry - my question was before you mentioned that the school was suggesting a SN issue. Obviously that explains why you were considering it.

I guess there's no reason not to get a medical check done, but I would bet good money the problem is with the school. It may get outstanding ratings, but that doesn't mean it's right for your DS. It sounds like you need somewhere that is a) more friendly and b) actively supportive of bilingualism.

My DD1 was exactly the same (though not bilingual). Her nursery was a caring, nurturing environment and they never pushed her. She thrived there, although still not speaking too much indoors (but the loudest in the playground!). She always loved nursery though so I would have worried if she was "tense" after.

The nursery sounds horrendous. Expecting any 3.5 year to sit through a 40 minute church assembly without fidgeting is unrealistic. Your nanny sounds lovely and very switched on. Get him out of that setting asap.

I am a late mother and no expert and my husband says that we cannot just assume that he is as academically bright as we are and should consider that he may be less gifted, shall we say. I think he is fine. Yes, he sometimes muddles his speech and really mixes the languages but I understand him easily (maybe because I speak both) and when he is keen he learns very quickly. He was potty trained within 1 1/2 weeks for example.

This is what the Nanny (who is a star) emailed me this week.

EMAIL START
Hi [Chislemum],

I just wanted to make a note with you to let you know my recent thoughts on [DS], mainly with regards to school.
I have noticed that [DS] seems to be slightly withdrawn on collection from Nursery and takes a while to "untense" if that's even a word.
Today on collection he was utterly filthy, and his coat was pretty much launched at me and words to the same effect as "we told [DS] not to go in the mud but he did anyway."
Now I am aware it was pick up time, but he does have an entire change of clothes at nursery which I feel he could have been put in. I had to change his entire outfit.
Also following the assessment you had with Mrs [Nursery teacher] on Friday, where it was stated he didn't follow in a line when it is needed, surely he should have been holding hands with an adult to assure this didn't happen. Only in my opinion but I just wanted to tell you.
Sorry to flag this but I wanted to let you know my thoughts.

[Nanny] X
END OF EMAIL

As next step: I just don't want to overreact, pull him out of nursery and then not have a new place for him. I will go to see other schools and since he is so young think it might be best to defer starting reception for a year, let him have a fun year in nursery and allow him to try Saturday school for Mummy's language (this would start soon) to see whether it would make him feel more confident about being bilingual. What do you think?

I would remove him as soon as possible - I think it is probably doing more harm than good. Even if you haven't got another place for him, he will learn just as much at home and if you/Nanny take him along to toddler groups and/or classes he will get the social interaction.
I would think very carefully about deferring reception - if he starts a year late, he will more than likely have to skip a year at some point - either go straight into Y1 and miss reception (which is an important time for social skills), or go to senior school having missed out Y6 (again an important stage in building social skills and confidence).
I think your DS would be fine in a Reception environment that was right for him - the current nursery obviously isn't.

I think you need to have more confidence in your parenting skills. You say your concerns only come from the nursery's comments. You don't need to be "objective" as you are an expert in your child. They only see him for a few hours in an environment that he seems to find very stressful. I disagree that you automatically need to accept "criticism" of your child. If they have unrealistic expectations, you should not accept it.

Would you consider withdrawing him from the nursery school to see if the "problems" disappear? Even deferring a few months might mean he is more ready for a school like environment.

Hi, I pulled my deeply unhappy dd out of a private nursery after only a term and a half, and luckily got a place at a local sure start nursery for the remaining term and a half of the year before reception. It was one of the best things I have ever done. The private nursery was destroying her self esteem, making her anxious and miserable. She gradually unwound at the lovely children's centre. Your child sounds completely normal (my dd is being assessed for autism, and I don't see anything in your posts that sounds in any way similar).

My mum used to run an outstanding nursery with lots of bilingual and trilingual children. She found that, as people have already said to you, that such children often speak a little later, and this is nothing to be concerned about. She also found that sometimes they felt self conscious about their other languages, so she ran a project about all the different countries and backgrounds of the children, and it had an immediate effect. A good nursery will think about how to embrace and value diversity, as all children are different.

Do please pull him out. I'm absolutely sure he'll be happier somewhere less pressured, or even if the nanny takes him to playgroups and classes for a while?

He is very young (August born) and I would like him to be ready for school. So deferring wouldn't worry me, especially since we have enough money to pay for secondary education all the way through. Just want him to be happy again. Even his smile is now forced and he clings to me when he wakes after a nightmare (he screams "no" in English and my language).

It is halfterm next week, so DH and I will have a serious sit-down. I am looking at other schools too.

Nursery teacher says he doesn't make eye contact with her but this allegedly has improved since last week. We told him he must look at her when she talks to him but he is definitely not happy.

I will talk to DH and find another school/nursery. DH is worried that school will tell new school that DS is "special needs" and that they will refuse to take him, etc. etc. All just very OTT for such a little boy.

Your nanny sounds lovely - you are lucky to have such a caring professional looking after him!

What is the worst thing that happens if you pull him out (of an environment where he sounds stressed, unhappy, and frankly, under-valued?) - could the nanny make up the shortfall whilst you look for a better place - take him to groups etc so that he maintains interactions with others? Not all children go to nursery, and they cope with school fine, as long as they have other interactions with peers.

I don't personally believe that at 3.5 he needs to be 'learning' anything he won't learn from playing with mud and snails; making cakes; singing songs and playing with teddies and jigsaws ;-)

The nanny is a superstar. He always smiles when she arrives and turns round on his chair at the breakfast table and says "it is [her name"]! He has no problems making eye contact with her or me, Daddy, Daddy's personal trainer, neighbour. He is shy though until he knows people, unless they have a dog or drive a tractor. He is also shy when there are lots of children until he gets used to the group, i.e. he was shy at the swimming class but is no fine and has started diving into the water", i.e. overcoming his fears.

he is now fine, not "no fine". He loves swimming now.

He sounds completely normal. Most children that age will be shy in new situations, and many more will take several meetings/sessions with new people to become more relaxed. Even those that take longer don't necessarily have a problem.
Of course he won't make eye contact with a teacher who is 'a nasty lady' and who is obviously scared of.

It sounds horrible. for you and DS. My DS is at a nursery where almost all the children and teachers are at least bilingual. I have no idea at all how the staff cope with understanding it all, and often a little person will come up to me and say something in a language I do not know. Bilingualism and all it entails should be celebrated in my view, don't give it up. If your nursery is not used to bilingual children, though, it is quite possible that this is making things worse. 2/3 year olds are often pretty indistinct after all. It must be effecting his confidence if he is no longer able to communicate effectively with those looking after him, but won't really understand why. I think another, kinder nursery is the way forward.

It sounds like you're describing a happy 3.5 yo. My DD is also 3.5 and she won't look at people when they are telling her things she doesn't want to hear. She is also at an age where she is 'aware' of people she doesn't know and can initially be a little wary. She loves her preschool, they are kind and nurturing there and they learn through child-led play. She has made friends and will now share her 'news'. She is late August birthday so I've had similar concerns to you wrt starting school. Thanks to preschool her confidence has grown and she has blossomed. They don't do formal learning yet she knows all her letters and can read simple books, she knows colours and numbers and counting and simple addition and subtraction.

What you are describing is not a good fit preschool for your ds. There are better options.

I would take him out of there - best case they are just not a good fit - worst they sound horrid....
Good schools will not assume he has special needs because he hadn't got on with x y z nursery.... nothing you have said has suggested issues particularly..

he is still young I'm not sure he will need a year of nursery necessarily before reception by September.. If you want him to have the socialisation before school (my ds also a summer born) look at some other nurserys -are there pre-schools where he could just do a couple of mornings a week?...
this is the last time he gets to have real free time before the education process all starts, not a time to be hiding in the toilets - that is really really sad..
your nanny sounds lovely and caring i'd let him just relax a bit he sounds lovely...

Your Nanny is telling you that the school is not suitable for your boy too.

He's 3.5. There's no need to worry about academics, or how bright he may or may not be. My eldest couldn't read until she was 8, but at 11 is one of the top kids in yr 6.

Take him out. Is he supposed to start reception in September? Look at some often reports, do some visiting, and see if you can find one that focuses on pastoral care rather than academics.

If he does turn out to be bright, going to private school at 7 or 11 will serve him just as well.

Please don't get hung up on how he's doing academically, he's so young, it's far more important, and he will learn better, if he's happy.

DH says that it works for other children there but perhaps he has different requirements. I stopped talking to him in my language over the weekend after the meeting with the nursery teacher. (I usually only speak to him in my language unless in front of other people so they understand or in front of other people I mix both) . It was weird speaking to him in English solely and he even started to speak my language saying "this is beautiful" "can i watch this" in my language and looking at me with a big question mark in his eyes. My DH says I am over reacting and too emotional. I just feel much damage could be done to him staying there.

It's so blindingly obviously a dreadful nursery. You're rejecting us all saying this and that everyone else is an expert. Why are you so wedded to the placement succeeding? You're your son's advocate and defender. Get him out and work out how to be more confident and awake! Is your husband very keen he stays?

Yes, DH says we can't take him out without a new nursery place and DH is worried a new school will not take him after nursery has labelled him "weird", in essence.

I would take him out now but I am quite emotional when it comes to DS. DH is a lot more practical. I wanted to speak to the teacher who knows my language and the headteacher to lay off DS a bit while we are looking for a new place, but DH says that is wrong without already having a new place.

I am really upset to be honest.

I feel so sad for your boy. What pressure from the pre-school! He doesn't 'need' to learn letters or sit through 40 mins of assembly, or be forced to speak in front of others if he is not confident doing it.

He should definitely not feel afraid or upset about going to school and should not be referred for specialist intervention until the school have worked with you to see if there is even a problem to refer for.

Take him out. Now. let him spend time with the nanny he clearly likes, while looking for a better place for him.

Aha x post.