Something very wrong with 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

[Chislemum]

Something is clearly very wrong with our 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

The biggest concern for us is the difference between the nursery setting and the outside nursery setting in both language and behaviour. He is the youngest in the class (August 12) and was used to one to one (Mum and Nannies) until September.

Outside nursery: DS is a bit shy (just like my husband), but happy and chatty. He mixes languages but speaks in full sentences (you can have a proper conversation)., is very playful with us and the Nanny, and is becoming more and more confident; eg. very confident outdoors and in swimming lessons, happy and playing with (not alongside) other children in playdates and also okay in the hustle and bustle of of his swimming class. He is intuitive and caring and always knows when people are sad, etc. He is also cuddly and loves dancing with his Nanny and is very keen on animals, play-doh, story time and all types of vehicles.

Inside the nursery: Nursery teacher tells me he can't speak at all. When he speaks (he has to report his news in front of all the other children and then doesn't want to say much), then the teacher says he talks gibberish and looks away when she talks to him. He seems to only want to play with cars and doesn't talk to other children. However, he is confident outdoors and we had several comments in his little book that he was "chatty" with his friends with doesn't quite tally. We were also told that he can't sit still for long (which he can do at home) and became "fidgety" after 40 minutes in their recent church assembly.

A relative who knows DS well is a primary school teacher and confirms that he is shy and a bit behind with his English "as to be expected for a bilingual child" but not concerned that he is any special needs issues such as autism. Relative works in a "deprived" area and has worked with autistic, special needs etc children and many bilinguals. She also says that the DS' nursery seems to be "hothousing", i.e. learning things they would only cover in reception in the state sector. However, can this really make such a difference to him? He is doing fine with his letters when at home and now even ok with the teacher.

The Nanny, whom our son adores, says he is tensing up after nursery and doesn't want her to leave in the morning when she takes him there. He also told her (and us) repeatedly that he is scared of the teacher and hides from her in the toilet. In the morning he now asks whether it is a Mummy and Daddy day and when he is told it is a school day, he only says "oh". He has also told me that he wants to go to the "purple school in the fields where the children are happy" and not to his nursery. We just don't know where that is (he may have dreamt this up). What worries me most was that when I said to him that something was "normal", he looked very worried and said that "DS is not normal, no!". I have no idea why he would say that. He also has started to have recurring nightmares (last few weeks screaming "no" and shaking when he wakes). This is new since January.

His Nanny says he is a normal playful little boy and only 3.5 years old and she, in essence, thinks that we should consider moving him to another school (somewhere where "can be a child") and he would be fine and happy again. I can't be that easy.

How can we help him? It worries me how is changing so much and is so different at school. I have contacted a medical centre that specialises in special needs children but wanted to hear from other mothers.

and I just read you stopped talking in your own language, why? fuck that! you have a bilingual child, who is in time going to flourish in both languages. You cannot deny him his heritage because it's inconvenient for the school.

I think your nanny is politely and correctly telling you that the current nursery isn't right for him.
If it was me I would take him out now and look for another nursery or preschool as soon as possible.

Have you made his school choice yet for September? What type of school is it ie very academic or learn through play in reception?
I don't think you need to delay starting reception as your little boy sounds just fine. It seems to be the current nursery that is the issue. In a nurturing school with correct play based learning he should be just fine. At age 3 the expectation is 5 to 10 minutes of concentration, just to put their 40 minutes of sitting into context.

@PavlovtheCat I started talking to him again in my language, couldn't help it, especially since he mixes them (he told me about a rocket flying to the moon this morning where he and I would eat cheese as astronauts), he mixed the languages and I just responded in mine. It is not a useless language either, big central European country so he could even take an A level in it. I was so convinced it was good for him. He pronounces it beautifully too, even long words, without any trace of an accent. Even my mother understands him via the phone.

He has started talking about going to a different school himself and nanny says she didn't tell him or discuss it with him. He talked about going to "purple school", which is "in the fields" and "far away", "where the children are happy". DH says I am overemotional but this almost broke my heart, indeed I am crying writing it.

@Lindy2 we had him down for the school that follows this private nursery so did not apply to the local council. Deadline for state schools has now passed, so another reason for DH to stick with current school until we have found somewhere new. We have done everything wrong. I just didn't expect anything like this to be sprung upon us, especially without warning and since everything was okay and he was still settling in fine in November.

I agree with everyone else that it's the wrong Nursery for your child and you should take him out now . He is clearly unhappy and you should be more worried about this and less about his " education " .

Please listen to what his behaviour he is telling you about how he feels at nursery .

He doesn't need to learn letters at 3.5 . He needs to have fun and learn through play . Sitting silently for 40 mins at this age is unreasonable .

Please defer his start to school , as he is too young .

And try to stop worrying - I see nothing in what you have posted to suggest that he has any special needs ( and neither does anyone else who has posted so far ) .

And I note that your family friend, who is a teacher and who knows your child well , says the same.

And please stop worrying about the bilingualism - this is a wonderful gift you have given him, not a burden .

BTW i have a bi lingual niece who also spoke " gibberish " on the on phone to her GP when she was that age . When one of her parents was away on business when she was 5, she completely refused to speak that parents language to anyone else !

When she was younger she also used the grammar or verb endings of one language in the other , which might make it confusing . AFAIK that's totally normal in Bi lingual kids .

Your DH is being unnecessarily unpleasant to you by telling you you are being too emotional. It's a way of saying that your opinions don't count. In fact your feelings are very rational - you are upset because your DS is clearly not happy.

Have you applied for a state primary school reception place in September? The deadline was in January, so you should have done so? Any state school will take your child irrespective of anything else, even if the current nursery was so unprofessional as to pass on their judgemental comments to them. Presumably you've also applied for private schools for September as well?

This current nursery sounds horrible, for your DS or any child. Listen to you completely sensible feelings and remove him now. Please don't feel you need to stop speaking your language, it's really not a problem.

The law is he has to be schooled. Is your DH set on private school? Because even if it does prove difficult to find a private school place, you could find a good state school for the first few years at least while he matures a bit and finds his feet.

This nursery is labelling your son weird. The longer he stays there, and doesn't meet their ridiculous requirements, the more likely the label is to stick. The more likely he is to withdraw from engaging in education, and the harder it's going to be to get him to love learning down the road.

Keep talking to him in your language. Getting his languages muddled is completely normal and not a problem at all. As he gets older this will stop and he will have the wonderful skill of being completely bi lingual.
It doesn't sound like the nursery understand how bi lingual children learn either.

@CultureSucksDownWords no, we idiotiotically had him down for the private school that follows this private nursery so did not apply to the local council. I just didn't expect anything like this to be sprung upon us, especially without warning and since everything was okay and he was still settling in fine in November.

They are private schools in the area, even non-selective ones, where he could go. If it came to it, I think we can find one.

My children and I are about to start learning another language, for the reasons you have said in your last post. Neither me or my DH can speak anything other than English and it makes me sad. It can, and will be amazing for him to have the opportunity speak two languages without accent, whether he choses to do something formal with it, or have it useful for work, certainly to converse with family, visiting your country. I am really quite jealous as I won't ever speak any language without a really bad childish accent.

My BIL speaks Mandarin. Has been told by his chinese family that he sounds like a foriegn 3 year old! But, his son is now 10 and speaks both English and Chinese fluently. He hardly spoke either language openly at school etc until he was about 8.

I am not surprised you are upset. He is your little boy, you want what is best for him and he is not getting that. Is he there now? Are you at work now? Where is your nanny? can she just go get him right this second and take him home

When will you know if he has a place at the primary school that follows on from this nursery? Are there any other private schools who are still taking applications for September?

Perhaps deferring his entry to next September might be a better option. You could change his nursery to a more nurturing environment, and take some more time to consider which school would suit him best. Have you looked at nurseries that are nature based, or perhaps a Montessori or similar approach?

@Lindy2 we had him down for the school that follows this private nursery so did not apply to the local council. Deadline for state schools has now passed, so another reason for DH to stick with current school until we have found somewhere new. We have done everything wrong. I just didn't expect anything like this to be sprung upon us, especially without warning and since everything was okay and he was still settling in fine in November

Ah, that's a bit of a bugger. Would have been better to keep your options open.

So today, phone your LEA and ask about putting in a late application. It will at least get you on waiting lists, and it's still likely you'll get a place next year. Remember, he doesn't have to go to school until next easter or even september (is it the term before or after they turn 5?), so you're entirely within your rights to keep him at home until a place comes up in the year.

Phone other private schools, get visiting. Please, before this place does your son some real damage.

You have not done everything wrong, it's not your fault that the nursery didn't work out .

Take him out now - you have a nanny so you are Ok for childcare .

Apply for other nurseries and start him at school in September next year . He's young and shy and will benefit from being the oldest in the year and not the youngest .

And speak your own language to him . This so that he can learn both languages from a native speaker . You especially need to teach him songs, stories and nursery rhymes in your language, this is very important to understanding culture as well. .

It doesn't matter if he can sit an A level in it or not - it's part of his cultural heritage . It has a value WAY beyond another A level .

I have a daughter born late July 12. She was looked after by a nanny since she was six weeks old. The nanny and everyone around her spoke my language. She went to nursery for about six months when she was two and picked up some English.
She started nursery properly in September. It is a private nursery. They do do some lessons but don't overboard with it. She has learnt so much english and she loves it there. She has even started speaking about a couple of friends.
I think she wouldn't have been able to settle in if she was forced into lesson type activities. The teachers were concerned when she spent a good two months talking gibberish (pretend English). She is also shy and she had issues with asking to go to the toilet. All was sorted by the nursery staff.
Your son appears to be like my daughter in many ways. But seems like the preschool is letting him down. If you find somewhere where he emphasis is on play rather than lessons then maybe he will enjoy more and learn more.
My daughter has been going to Saturday school to learn my language too. She really enjoys it. It is also giving her some lesson style activities which I think will prepare her for school - by increasing her concentration and helping her not fidget.
I was told that consistency is the key when it comes to brining up a bilingual child. I will never speak to my daughter in English, neither will my husband and rest of my family. That way she starts to not mix. She mixes less and less now. For a while she was applying rules of grammar of one language to the other. If created hilarious sentences.

micah if he is in England, the law states he has to be schooled by the term following (or of) his 5th birthday. So he won't need to legally be schooled until April next year. And, there is also the option of HE. So if the right school is not found by September, it can be deferred for a period of time until the right school is found.

Why do you want to send him to the school associated with the nursery when it's not the right place for your child? It will have the same ethos .

You are panicking unnessarily.

I love you girls for being soooo supportive. (being very emotional now)

mmicah x-pst.

This post has made me very sad as it reminds me very much of my own son.

TAKE HIM OUT ASAP. This could have lasting damage for his education if it affects his confidence and his happiness in school

Please, you cannot over emphasise this enough to your dh.

If you are doing private education it is very easy to defer a year and maybe your ds needs this (my BIL's done this with nephew who is August and finds it hard to concentrate).

My son was the happiest and most engaging child you could have known in Nursery. (His TA once asked me if he was the happiest child in the world!). Nursery was mostly play, and this was great for him, but it was a big change when he had to go to Reception. He changed in Reception despite being one of the eldest children in the class. He changed because his teacher was not very good, he was told off a lot, and other kids picked up on this and started picking on him. His Y1 teacher wasn't great either. This happened for 2 years. His confidence was knocked, he had trouble sleeping, he had trouble with relationships, he had trouble eating. 2 years is a very, very long time for a young child. He is a sensitive child too so it affected him a lot more deeply than it may have done another child. He is now 10 and has caught up academically (it has taken that long), but sadly his confidence has been damaged long term, as has his relationship with the school environment and other children. He is a bit of a 'victim', hates school and that sparkle he used to have rarely comes out. If I could have my time again, I would have removed him from his Reception Year very quickly and found somewhere else who was more sympathetic to his needs, and could handle him better. He just took a little longer to catch up, but the way he was treated by staff and the other kids damaged him, probably for life. I kept thinking, "It will get better." And yes, finally it did, after 2 years, but it hurt him so much.

I don't want to sound melodramatic. I have 2 other children as well, so I know a bit about school, and kids, and their experience could not have been more different. You have to tread very carefully with kids and unhappiness.

I think it could be very likely that the school attached to the nursery is not likely to be a good fit for him either.
I'm sure you can get on some state school lists or look at other private options. You don't need to commit to anything yet but I do think you need to widen your options. I think you may be surprised at how different other nurseries and school generally are, both in the state and private sector.
Can you say what area you are in? Others may be able to suggest other schools to consider. You don't need to name where he is now.

I mean this kindly, OP. I am also a late mother and had no experience of babies, so I'm not trying to criticize you.

This whole situation has become too loaded. Honestly, a 'normal' nursery asks for kids to attend in old clothes precisely so they can have fun in the mud. It sounds like in an effort to do the best for him, and given your and your DH's finances and intellects, you have made the understandable mistake of thinking that if you pay money for something that is 'outstanding' then it is the best thing for your son. At this age what they need is fun, cuddles, and exposure to other kids. That's it, honestly.

Please stop all the analysis of him, it will do you no good. He sounds like any other NT small child, except that he has placed in a harsh environment.

It will do him no harm at all to go to a kinder, less glossy place. One where the leaders want the kids to bloom as themselves, rather than be pushing them so they can assure the parents that the fees are worth it. This will not 'hold him back' or stop him being ready for school. It won't limit him intellectually.

Marigold- what a moving post. Im sorry for what you and your son have been through

It is great that the is bilingual, and please carry on! Special needs or not (and probably not in this case), please carry on. My ds has significant SN and is bilingual, I have never once contemplated dropping a language, and all professionals are amazed that he is bilingual. It can only be positive.

What he does sound is very anxious, and stressed. The nursery really doesn't sound the right place for him to be in. Look for somewhere else, with more individualistic and nurturing care.

I've just come to this thread. But your DH's conerns over another school not taking him because fo the label the current school have given him is silly. What is concerning is that if he stayed and went to reception from this nursery, then he will very much be labelled with what that nursery teacher has decided that he is like.

Your son will have much more of a chance somewhere new, where they can get to know him themselves.