Something very wrong with 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

[Chislemum]

Something is clearly very wrong with our 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

The biggest concern for us is the difference between the nursery setting and the outside nursery setting in both language and behaviour. He is the youngest in the class (August 12) and was used to one to one (Mum and Nannies) until September.

Outside nursery: DS is a bit shy (just like my husband), but happy and chatty. He mixes languages but speaks in full sentences (you can have a proper conversation)., is very playful with us and the Nanny, and is becoming more and more confident; eg. very confident outdoors and in swimming lessons, happy and playing with (not alongside) other children in playdates and also okay in the hustle and bustle of of his swimming class. He is intuitive and caring and always knows when people are sad, etc. He is also cuddly and loves dancing with his Nanny and is very keen on animals, play-doh, story time and all types of vehicles.

Inside the nursery: Nursery teacher tells me he can't speak at all. When he speaks (he has to report his news in front of all the other children and then doesn't want to say much), then the teacher says he talks gibberish and looks away when she talks to him. He seems to only want to play with cars and doesn't talk to other children. However, he is confident outdoors and we had several comments in his little book that he was "chatty" with his friends with doesn't quite tally. We were also told that he can't sit still for long (which he can do at home) and became "fidgety" after 40 minutes in their recent church assembly.

A relative who knows DS well is a primary school teacher and confirms that he is shy and a bit behind with his English "as to be expected for a bilingual child" but not concerned that he is any special needs issues such as autism. Relative works in a "deprived" area and has worked with autistic, special needs etc children and many bilinguals. She also says that the DS' nursery seems to be "hothousing", i.e. learning things they would only cover in reception in the state sector. However, can this really make such a difference to him? He is doing fine with his letters when at home and now even ok with the teacher.

The Nanny, whom our son adores, says he is tensing up after nursery and doesn't want her to leave in the morning when she takes him there. He also told her (and us) repeatedly that he is scared of the teacher and hides from her in the toilet. In the morning he now asks whether it is a Mummy and Daddy day and when he is told it is a school day, he only says "oh". He has also told me that he wants to go to the "purple school in the fields where the children are happy" and not to his nursery. We just don't know where that is (he may have dreamt this up). What worries me most was that when I said to him that something was "normal", he looked very worried and said that "DS is not normal, no!". I have no idea why he would say that. He also has started to have recurring nightmares (last few weeks screaming "no" and shaking when he wakes). This is new since January.

His Nanny says he is a normal playful little boy and only 3.5 years old and she, in essence, thinks that we should consider moving him to another school (somewhere where "can be a child") and he would be fine and happy again. I can't be that easy.

How can we help him? It worries me how is changing so much and is so different at school. I have contacted a medical centre that specialises in special needs children but wanted to hear from other mothers.

Oh I do feel for you .

would he go absolutely batshit if you just went ahead and overrode him on this? What are his reasons for needing another place first? what does he think your DS is getting from nursery that he will miss out on if he doesn't go straight into a new nursery?

First things first, start looking at those other places now, if not already doing so.

@hazeyjane The Nursery teacher tells me they want him to be assessed so he can fulfill his potential - am fine with that - but that the way they go about it and him hiding and being scared, etc. isn't good. I told her that he was scared of her and she blushed but then brushed it off and pointed out how he wasn't looking at her, talking gibberish only. He can talk though and behaves like a lot of bilinguals.

I have contacted a speech therapist and a behavourial therapist and maybe they can help him. I would like him out of the nursery too. It makes me sad that he thinks he is not normal and withdraws so much and is crying every night. He is such a sparkly open little boy normally.

@PavlovtheCat yes, DH would. He tends to override me, tbh.

You know your child best. The thing that I didn't like either was that they are made to speak in front of a group about themselves - if your son is an introvert (which he might be - I think u referred to him as shy) then that would be a horrific prospect! I don't understand why schools keep pushing their extrovert-agenda onto everyone when it just doesn't suit lots of us! (I'm 100% introvert and still uncomfortable with speaking in a group, but I have made a success of my life)

Start ringing round some other more suitable preschools in your area. There's no reason why he couldn't move quite quickly if somewhere else has a place.

you know, i can't read any more. I feel so sad for him. is he at the nursery today? if he is crying at night, how does he feel right this second? how can you bear that, from everything you have said.

he is not even my son and I feel desperate for him. he is 3.5 and afraid of the teacher. you are afraid, and an adult, how can you explain that his fear is misplaced if you feel it too?

Just get him right now, hug him, wipe his tears, and promise to make it better for him, and take him out of that place. Don't leave him in there a second longer than he has to be.

And your DH is an arse if he cannot allow you to pull him out, and dismisses your very real fears and concerns, based on evidence, as being over emotional. Emotions are fine, they are a way of telling us things are ok or not ok.

Anyway. I am not going to post more. I am just going to nag you otherwise and that's not helpful.

You might want to consider Montessori , if you are looking for an experience more like kindergarten.

If you have 3 university degrees after starting school at 6, why are you panicking about your son aged 3.5? Is this pressure coming from your husband ? is he keen to get him to pre prep and then onto public school ?

Because that would explain a lot of your posts and your dilemma .

If it is, you and H need to have a Big Talk , as it sounds as if you have very different views on how to bring up your child. I suspect that this might be at the root of your problem, not that's there's anything wrong with your child.

Oh poor love. Didn't want to read and run but I agree with the other PPs. Sounds like the nursery is the problem, not him.

Hope you can convince your DH of that too.

@Lindy2 have started contacting pre-schools. Might create a second thread which ones are good. :)

Your DH is being irrational. He isn't discussing this calmly and reasonably, and isn't listening to you. I find it alarming that he dismisses emotional responses as irrational and to be ignored.

When I chose a nursery for my DS, after checking the fundamentals were ok e.g. OFSTED reports, local recommendations, qualifications etc, I then judged the nurseries on their "vibe/atmosphere". I actually think that's a really important part of the process - will the nursery suit the personality and preferences of my child? An unhappy child will not make progress as they should, even if the nursery is meant to be excellent.

I would be livid with my DP attempting to overrule me like this. Your DS could be having a wonderful time, in another nursery, or just with the nanny. Instead he's getting more and more unsettled and upset. Why would your DH want that to happen? It makes no sense.

The things is referring to outside professionals, recommending assessments - they need to be done with you and discussed with you rather than the nursery telling you what to do. Your son is afraid of nursery and it sounds as though you are too - this is not a great way to be!

Great that you have some other preschools that you can look at. Visit them, see how the children are playing, ask about things like mat time - how long is it? What happens (story? Singing? Games?). What happens about outdoor play (how free flow is it?) talk to the senco about what happens if a child needs extra support? Talk about being bilingual and see how they deal with English as an additional language?

@hazeyjane do you think I should ask the current nursery to be a bit gentler with him while we are looking for something else, i.e. speaking to headteacher and perhaps also to the German speaker? I think DS is introvert rather than shy (my DH too btw). I was very shy as a child but became confident later on in life (at least in my job).

I am confused as to why you are seeking input from a speech therapist and a behavioural therapist . You haven't mentioned any behavioural problems or Speech and language problems . Or did I miss it?

You seem very keen to listen to almost everyone except your child. He's unhappy, he cries every night . He's sad and withdrawn . What does he have to do to get you to listen to him ?

Oh and, it sounds as though you taken thngs bo red really quickly, and take action really quickly - this isn't necessarily a bad thing! But I think you need to take it steady, take your time to find a good one, don't go rushing off booking private assessments, Private behaviour therapists. Take a step back, and a deep breath.

(Also if a setting is ofsted outstanding, it doesn't mean it is the right one for your child - I dismissed 2 outstanding preschools and a Good Montessori nursery that everyone recommends, before settling on the preschool Ds went to - because it suited him, and they were willing to work around his specific needs. I visited on my own, and with him, several times to get a feel if it was the right place)

Keiner is blinder als der , der night sehen will

( hope I've got that right )

Your DS does not need a language or behaviour therapist. He needs to be in a place he feels secure and safe enough to be himself. He is afraid of his teacher ffs and having nightmares. What else does your DH need!? Your nanny sounds amazing and can obviously see the effect it is having on his emotional state.
This teacher is clearly putting too much focus on MAKING him speak only English and then making him feel naughty/stupid to the point of him wanting to not speak your language. It is bullying. Your son is telling you how he is being treated the best way a 3 year old can. LISTEN TO HIM.

Sorry you taken thngs bo red really quickly, should say, you take things on board really quickly!

Is the German speaker your ds's key worker? (I ask because my colleague is German and has had 2 key children who speak German, as it makes sense to pair them up) I would say to the manager (or your child's key worker) that your Ds is struggling with nursery, and isn't settled there, and that he seems to find it overwhelming - you would like a chat about how best you and the nursery can work together to help him. (But I would also look at other settings!)

Do you ever get a chance to go in for a session (parent helper/sharing session)? If not I would ask if you could do one.

@Kr1stina I don't see problems myself other than him being more and more unhappy. He is mixing languages and playful, loves running about and likes playing. If I was in my home country I would tell everyone to f* off. I am not though and the nursery seems to see massive issues. So I just want to make sure I support DS properly and think some private assessment might be good so we can see that things are really ok. I personally wouldn't have but the Nursery teacher freaked me out and I now question my own judgment. DS was potty trained quickly, walked at normal time, etc. He was a bit late with speaking and mixes languages. Reading the board he sounds like most of the other bilinguals. I just want to make sure I am not missing anything.

@hazeyjane I think there is one leader of the nursery (the one DS is so scared of) and different TAs. Not even sure they have a keyworker. I think the German speaker may actually just know a bit of my language (i.e. O level or so), I doubt they really speak it.

DS was allegedly settling in fine still in November, as would be expected from a child that had previously just been with Nannies, etc. but now, all of a sudden, he seems to not be. I even wondered whether they have an agenda other than helping him but I sound paranoid. (too emotional)

There is so much good advice here - nothing to add except to agree that this nursery setting is not right for your DS and you need to take him out. 3.5 is still so young! I have a just turned 4yo DS and he talks gibberish sometimes and can't do lots of things yet but so what - he's happy, and the nursery tell me he's completely within range of what is normal developmentally.

Incidentally, he won't talk to people he doesn't like either! I obviously have no idea whether your DS needs intervention / help/ assessment but from the sounds of it he does need somewhere more tolerant, caring and nurturing. Good luck with your search!

Oh dear Chislemum, the more I hear about your ds's nursery the more it sounds awful!

My German colleague finds the whole english system of preschool and our early school starting age completely bizarre! This situation must be even more difficult because it is so alien to the German system - but just to reassure you, the problems are with this nursery, not all preschools are like this!

I really hope you manage to get your dh on board, you find the right place for your boy, and he can play and relax and have fun there (which is what should be happening in a preschool that is right for him)

@Fannini sometimes talks a bit muddled but also talks properly in long sentences but mixes languages, the word "gibberish" came from the Nursery teacher. He was taken away from news times and someone else listened to him and it allegedly made no sense. That other person appears to understand my language but I don't know how well. DS has lovely conversations with me, he can sometimes be distracted if there is something more interesting or he sees a puddle but he can certainly focus very well. He picked up new letters really quickly and can sit still in a cinema for ages, for example. Just not through more than 40 mins of a Church assembly without becoming "fidgety".

He is however hiding in the toilet. Nursery teacher told me he did spend a lot of time there and this was a sign he had issues. I asked him at home whether he spend a lot of time in the toilet at school and he said "yes". I asked him why and gave him options (is it nice there? do you have problems with your weewee?) and he volunteered he was hiding. I asked is a game? No, but why are you hiding, again giving him examples. Are you hiding there with someone? Are you hiding because it is raining? Just lots of fun things too. He laughed and then he said "no", "I am hiding from Mrs XY. She is a nasty lady".

So maybe he has issues and should not be hiding. He also avoids eye contact with her and doesn't listen when she calls him. When we call him or the Nanny he does listen. He is just sometimes a little cheeky or doesn't want to do something. He would then grin or laugh at me and say "don't want to do it". We told him he had to look at the teacher and it seems he is better this week but he also seems very stressed out. As the Nanny said, he is "tense".

In all honesty I'd tell my DH to fuck off. I wouldn't use the words but...I'd do it.

I get that parents have equal say etc but if damage were being done to my very small child (and damage IS being done) I'd have to stick up for my baby.

He is only tiny and he is being bullied. He is being made to feel there is something wrong with him. He needs you to stand up for him.

Oh God, honestly, he will hate school if he associates it with being scared.

My dd went to one of the 'best' (read most expensive) pre preps, and it was so so wrong for her. And I did think they had it in for her after a while. She would wake up crying about 'the incident book', because she knew she was in trouble. It was full of the children of city lawyers and bankers. That didn't make it any good. Great if you want a 3 year old to write and sit still for ages, but that is completely at odds with what we know is best for the development of children.

Do you have a children's centre nearby? The staff are generally better qualified, more experienced and familiar with the idea that kids are actually kids, not little formal learning automatons.

What I hope my dd got from the whole sorry episode is that I will not let her be miserable. I went in one day and watched her (they didn't let parents stay) and she was like a coiled spring. She was so tense. We did not go back the next day.

Your husband will just have to suck it up.

@outputgap If feel the same and I think him saying "[DS' name] is not normal" is something he must have overheard. He told me this in the context of me telling him something was normal, i.e. bird making a noise, can't remember.

He did say he wanted to go to the "purple school in the fields where the children are happy". Not sure where it came from, he told the nanny, he told me, he told DH. He said he does not want to go to school (his nursery).