Something very wrong with 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

[Chislemum]

Something is clearly very wrong with our 3 1/2 year old bilingual DS.

The biggest concern for us is the difference between the nursery setting and the outside nursery setting in both language and behaviour. He is the youngest in the class (August 12) and was used to one to one (Mum and Nannies) until September.

Outside nursery: DS is a bit shy (just like my husband), but happy and chatty. He mixes languages but speaks in full sentences (you can have a proper conversation)., is very playful with us and the Nanny, and is becoming more and more confident; eg. very confident outdoors and in swimming lessons, happy and playing with (not alongside) other children in playdates and also okay in the hustle and bustle of of his swimming class. He is intuitive and caring and always knows when people are sad, etc. He is also cuddly and loves dancing with his Nanny and is very keen on animals, play-doh, story time and all types of vehicles.

Inside the nursery: Nursery teacher tells me he can't speak at all. When he speaks (he has to report his news in front of all the other children and then doesn't want to say much), then the teacher says he talks gibberish and looks away when she talks to him. He seems to only want to play with cars and doesn't talk to other children. However, he is confident outdoors and we had several comments in his little book that he was "chatty" with his friends with doesn't quite tally. We were also told that he can't sit still for long (which he can do at home) and became "fidgety" after 40 minutes in their recent church assembly.

A relative who knows DS well is a primary school teacher and confirms that he is shy and a bit behind with his English "as to be expected for a bilingual child" but not concerned that he is any special needs issues such as autism. Relative works in a "deprived" area and has worked with autistic, special needs etc children and many bilinguals. She also says that the DS' nursery seems to be "hothousing", i.e. learning things they would only cover in reception in the state sector. However, can this really make such a difference to him? He is doing fine with his letters when at home and now even ok with the teacher.

The Nanny, whom our son adores, says he is tensing up after nursery and doesn't want her to leave in the morning when she takes him there. He also told her (and us) repeatedly that he is scared of the teacher and hides from her in the toilet. In the morning he now asks whether it is a Mummy and Daddy day and when he is told it is a school day, he only says "oh". He has also told me that he wants to go to the "purple school in the fields where the children are happy" and not to his nursery. We just don't know where that is (he may have dreamt this up). What worries me most was that when I said to him that something was "normal", he looked very worried and said that "DS is not normal, no!". I have no idea why he would say that. He also has started to have recurring nightmares (last few weeks screaming "no" and shaking when he wakes). This is new since January.

His Nanny says he is a normal playful little boy and only 3.5 years old and she, in essence, thinks that we should consider moving him to another school (somewhere where "can be a child") and he would be fine and happy again. I can't be that easy.

How can we help him? It worries me how is changing so much and is so different at school. I have contacted a medical centre that specialises in special needs children but wanted to hear from other mothers.

Thanks Kr1stina.

He sounds like any other NT small child, except that he has placed in a harsh environment.

This ^

I was going to write. There is nothing very wrong with your 3 and a half year old. There is something very wrong with the Nursery.

I can feel the panic through this thread. You and your DH need to stop panicking and above all, stop letting other people make your son terribly unhappy!

There is no stigma around SN and it's terribly sad to hear your DH fear of this.

It's as if ONE single setting which clearly isn't working, has no expertise in multi-lingual ism and very err, unusual expectation of a 3 yr old, and if that's not enough is led by someone who you yourself as a fully grown adult admit is intimidating and scary... Given all that you are accepting them labelling your son and you both are standing back letting them and saying ah well, we have to face it and write him off too! There, doesn't it sound bonkers now I'm saying it?!

If he has special needs this is the wrong setting for him. If he has needs around bilingualism this is the wrong setting for him. If he's scared and unhappy this is the wrong setting for him.

But based on reputation, exclusiveness and expectation from you and your DH, you are dismissing it all.

How very very sad. Poor child.

Are you chislehurst area? Just from your username..

Plenty of good state and private schools round there. I'm sure others can be more specific.

Sorry bad grammar am posting on the hoof

Sorry, got distracted so I've only just seen the post that you're upset and that you were hoping for him to go to the school this nursery is attached to.

firstly, it's awful to know your child is sad.

Secondly, I'd rethink your school choice and visit some more. Kindness and encouragement need to be top of the list for littlies in my opinion, otherwise how will they feel confident and happy in school? And if they're not happy and confident in school how do they develop a love of learning?

You wouldn't parent your child by only shouting at him and making him anxious, you'd encourage him to explore the world around him and you'd guide him. Primary school should be the same.

Sounds to me like he is actually being bullied by at least one of the teachers. They seem to refuse to allow him to speak in your language at all. Of course he will mix the 2 and that is completely normal.

Take him out of there op. Nursery is not a legal requirement. Find another school.

You sound a lovely person, as does your boy and the nanny. You must remove him from that horrible place - he cannot convey any more clearly that it is awful for him. I think that doing so, firmly, will restore your peace and faith in your instincts.
I think it's ridiculous to be concerned about a nursery labelling a tiny child as "weird" and anyway I don't see how he'd become any less "what-those-horrible-people-might-wrongly-perceive-as-weird" if he toughs it out there.
If I were in your position, I'd make time to have a good old cry about all of this, just to let the emotions out and to ensure that when you speak to DH , teachers, etc, you are able to be your clear-headed rational self.
Please keep speaking and singing and playing in your own tongue with your child. It's an incredible gift.
This will work out.

@:Micah I used to be in Chislehurst, not any more. We have moved further out as they say so DS could have a nicer upbringing in the outside and have a big garden. He loves our garden but he said after the incident with the mud earlier in the week that he won't play in the garden anymore since there is mud.

I told DH to take him out of the Nursery now but DH refuses. I agree with you all.

I just don't want to be the mother that can't accept criticism of her child

Sounds a bit like you are going too far the other way, you seem a bit overeager to assume there is something wrong with your child when it seems rather obvious that the nursery school simply does not suit him.

He's 3 and a half, he should be playing and having fun, not learning letters and being assessed because he is a normal 3 year old boy! You need to stop analysing everything, stop pathologising normal behaviours. Let him be.

PS My parents in my home country (where they still live and where I grew up and went to school and uni) sent me to a Protestant Froebel Kindergarden. I have some of my happiest memories of that time. It was very Christian in an open minded and tolerant way, praying and teaching things ahead of school too (we start school at 6) but they made it huge fun and I loved it. It was the best time. I told DH I want our DS to have the same experience but he tells me I am panicking and too emotional.

Chislemum, maybe dh could read this thread as it is fairly unanimous. Also, could you ask Nanny to speak to him. If he is still adamant that he is right, then your ds has bigger problems than his Nursery teacher (and so do you).

Oh dear, OP. I hope your DH isn't one of those fans of "building character" in small boys children.

I'm not religious, but your school sounds lovely.

1. Take him out of the nursery - time with just the Nanny will be far better for his long term education and mental helath than this place.
2. Apply for local state schools now - LA will have to find you a place somewhere, you can go on waiting lists, and you might be very lucky (I know lots of children have got places in my local oversubscribed state school having applied after this date - people do move).
3. Look at other nurseries and schools, and be very honest with them about your present experience. You will then know if they offer a far more "child centred" approach. And lots of highly academic schools do at this age.

He will get a school place.
Personally I would not defer, but find the right school for your son.

Is your husband from the UK?

Oh and do keep talking to him in your home tongue - it will be fine. I know lots of children who are doing perfectly well at 8 or so, where they do not speak any English at home.

Marigold, your post made me well up. I'm glad to hear he's doing better. We had similar with our first child. We moved away and it got much better but it still bothers me occasionally and he's at Uni now!

OP, personally I would probably pull him out today and let him spend his days with his adored nanny. 3 year olds don't have to go to nursery, in lots of places, they don't. Far better to have him home rebuilding his confidence and letting him enjoy his little life.

@HeyNonnyMaybe my parents chose my Kindergarden because my mother liked its "vibe"/"atmosphere"; sounds crazy, but it worked. I thought the Catholic school/nursery would work for DS the same way but it clearly doesn't. Will speak to DH. I think he - like me too - wants the best for DS, we just don't agree and don't know what that is. I think too that sitting for 40 mins is utterly ridiculous. Nursery teacher seems so focused on finding fault in DS it makes me cross. Even the Nanny says the Nursery teacher "has got it in for him". At the Christmas Fete, we went into a big room full of people with DS and he pulled us to leave after he spotted the teacher. Yes, I feel she doesn't like him (that is my mother's instinct) but it is not rational and my DH won't accept it.

Change nursery. Now.
Don't give up your language !

@Marigold I read this and can see the same happening to DS. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing this with me. Sending you much love.

Husband is English, went to normal primary and was then privately educated at a well-known school "posh" private school. We are both dually qualified lawyers, we both got masters degrees and I even have a PhD. I am convinced DS is bright (not objective, I know).

Chips, he moved classes in Y2, and also had a fantastic teacher and TA that year, which helped. We have recently moved area and he's really struggling to settle in. Teacher is lovely, and very encouraging though, which I am so relieved about, but kids not so much .

I remember once watching the teacher interacting with a group of ds1's friends, laughing and joking and then ds tried to join in and she snapped at him. I could tell she felt he was 'hard work' and couldn't be bothered with him. The saddest thing is, he could tell too. He used to have these huge meltdowns after school. I had 1.5yr old twins at the time so it was just really hard to deal with it all.

My ds does have some mild SEN. His intelligence is fine, but processing is slow, so he may require extra time for exams.

Hope your dh is rational whilst also being compassionate and wise.

He very probably is bright and being bilingual will be enormously helpful. But I don't think he is happy in this nursery and I think he will thrive elsewhere. Look at all the local private schools, your gut instinct will tell you which is right for your son at this age. You have a nanny, it doesn't matter if he is out of nursery for a few weeks.

Hi Chislemum

I've only just seen this thread too but have read through it all.

Your son is 3.5. He doesn't need to go to nursery at all. I agree with all the other posters saying that thus nursery sounds so wrong, on so many levels, for your son. The description of his language skills that you give sounds as though he's very bright, aware and engaging. His teacher sounds awful.

At 3.5 there is no need to be learning letters. We were told NOT to try to teach our DCs letters before they went to school in reception. I didn't, & I now have children who are achieving beyond expectations & who are on the 'able student' register. I'm not saying that to boast, but to say that hit housing is, IMO, a big mistake. A 3.5 year old needs to play, to feel how it feels to get dirty, to make mud pies, to jump in puddles, to have fun. There is a tonne of evidence to show this.

You said you aren't an expert, but I disagree. You sound as though you know your DS very well, & you know he's miserable. A miserable start to education can be so damaging.

Please take him out. Everything you've said points to him being utterly miserable in this place. Have him stay at home with the nanny & try a local pre-school later in the year. Not necessarily a private one either, and visit first with him. He'll get a feel. I remember taking DS2 around nurseries & after one of them, he said "please don't make me go there Mummy, the ladies were mean". I didn't send him there... Your son is telling you the same. Listen to him!

As for your fears about your son being labeled going anywhere new, I wouldn't be surprised if you actually find that his current nursery has a 'reputation'. And not a good one.

A few thoughts to bear in mind:

• it's never too late to change your mind. This is a sign of strength (adapting to new information/reassessing) not weakness. You are not making an irrational emotional decision - you are reacting to a new set of circumstances. Please don't feel you have to ignore your opinion because it is 'emotional'. Look round at other places. Ask them (& your current school) what their approach is to bilingual children, and their needs and opportunities. You want a school that is positive about the fact that you are offering ds the wonderful opportunity of a native second language (very jealous!). Ask them how they deal with children who are shy. They should have 101 strategies in place!
• don't underestimate happiness. A happy child learns better, quicker and importantly WANTS to learn - because it's fun!
• any decent school won't take the word of one nursery (without a formal diagnosis) that something isn't quite NT (neurologically typical) - they will want to make their own judgement. Especially if you say 'we felt that there wasn't a good fit - the setting really didn't bring the best out of ds'. So don't worry for a second about that/being 'stuck' in a school you aren't happy with.

(But also - if your ds does need extra help with something, sometime in the next 15 years of schooling, that's not a 'failure' or a 'scrap heaping' issue - lots of really bright children struggle with social skills, or confidence, or handwriting, or whatever! Not that I think you are doing this, but just have in the back of your head that help isn't necessarily a bad thing!)

The nursery sounds awful so I think you should move him.

A little time in a setting that suits him and that has good practice, would be great for helping him when it comes to settling into school.

I do have to point out though, that if a child has special needs and needs some extra support, it isn't that there is something wrong with them, or they are weird, or on the scrap heap - they just need varying amounts of extra support to help them grow.

I work in a mainstream preschool as a 1-1 for children with special needs. In the preschool there are children who need a bit of extra support, and some who need full time 1-1 support, some who don't speak any English, there are some who need support for reasons other than development. We take them all, and support them all in the way that each individual child needs, to play and be with other children and take their first steps to school.

You really need to try and find a more supportive setting, that works with you and your child. If it turns out that your child does need some extra help (for whatever reason) then the setting should work with you every step of the way to work out what that support is - and don't worry about stigma and labels, just do what your child needs.

You sound as though you know your DS very well, & you know he's miserable. A miserable start to education can be so damaging

You know he is miserable, and the impact it is having could affect his entire outlook on education.

Do something about it, and tell your DH that you cannot ignore the knowledge that your DS is deeply unhappy. It's difficult when you don't agree on a parenting issue, and this is a huge parenting area, so it's better if you do agree, but what is more important, your DH's views being the ones that get taken into account, or the wellbeing of your DS. You have do make a stand on this one. My opinion anyway.

DH tells me we need a new place first. He just put down the phone on me, when I told him about the consensus of the Mumsnet Thread.