Does anyone else want to come and be a better parent with me?

[AnotherMonkey]

I've just deleted my original post in an attempt to be more positive.

I'm very low tonight, both of mine (4.5 and nearly 2) are pushing me so far beyond my limits at the moment.

So instead of posting my rant of misery, I wondered if anyone felt like joining me in choosing one thing to be less crap at at time?

Tomorrow, I am going to begin by taking it all less seriously. I'm going to try really really hard not to shout at all (this is difficult because DS is deaf at the moment and often does things which are not safe or bloody annoying but I'm going to find ways around it if I can). Essentially I'm going to try to take a step back and instead of letting poor behaviour bring me down, I'm going to try to isolate problems so that they can be dealt with. I might even make a list. I like lists.

(This evening was so bad I never want to see my neighbours again. I'm quiet, smart and even tempered in real life. Tonight our house must have sounded like a war zone. Or the screaming toddler equivalent. It's shit and it has to change).

Hmm all sounds quite familiar!! DS doesn't just chase ducks, he does a big stompy run and ROOOOARS at them . Pigeons are another favourite for this treatment. He also stamped repeatedly on an insect the other day because he was cross, despite my protestations.

I have to give us credit and say that we have made progress this summer holiday though. We still see some of the crazy behaviour, but it is far more balanced by happy, settled, normal behaviour. It's what I'd consider hard work but age appropriate, rather than completely overwhelming.

I have so many 3-4 year old stories I truly can't decide where to start!!

Yes monkey all horribly familiar Except not sure we've made progress this summer. I got irate doing painting with do while the boys napped when she grabbed my top with painty fingers then dropped a painting face down on the floor as I wasn't quick enough to get the next sheet of paper out. I snapped at her big time though... God I'm rubbish at this

I agree, I think chasing animals for fun and throwing sand is a fairly normal part of life for 3-4 yos. They might know that it's not allowed but they have crappy impulse control at that age. DS aged 5 is better with cats but he will get stroppy when the cat runs away even if he sits gently to wait for it to come to him. They really don't get that the world doesn't revolve around them just yet.

I had a bit of a discussion on a facebook group I'm on the other day and I ended up doing a really long post, a bit I got at the end I'll copy and paste here because I think it's relevant (and it helped me to spell it out like this). It was a discussion about whether time out is harmful and basically someone piled in (who has a one year old) and posted a load of Alfie Kohn links. I cringed, because that was probably me a few years ago. I could see it was coming from a good place but I just wanted to share my experience and I tried to give a bit of balance. I've come to think that most of the "gentle parenting" type blogs are too black and white - they present the "choice" as doing this, or as being a total hardline behaviourist, dangling stickers and praise in front of your child on a string while holding a threat of time out (or smacking or whatever since a lot of the sites are American and they're really into that over there) behind them for every single interaction you have, and I just don't think that's what most people do. Maybe in the US it is more like that? But I really doubt it. So (copied and pasted),

I try to avoid punishment and go for problem solving, root cause-seeking, and preventing the issue directly whenever possible. But I have found, I don't know if I'm just crappy at it, or my kid is broken, or maybe the theory is just wrong, that sometimes there are just repeated behaviours which do not go away unless there is some kind of disincentive. And there are occasions when an incentive is extremely helpful. So second resort, if I need to punish (disincentivise? ) then I choose something which either helps the situation (e.g. removing from a situation to a calm environment to calm down, but perhaps I can't stay with them), or helps make amends/fix the wrongdoing, or helps teach the correct behaviour for that situation. Or if possible, two or three of these things. I think it's more likely to go in and be remembered than something generic.

Last resort - yes I do use generic punishment. Because, you know, sometimes you're just too tired, too frazzled, too about to snap, and you don't have the energy or the time or the headspace to come up with a special kind of educational consequence. And then I make up the difference (because earlier I mentioned the downsides of generic punishment - that it is ONLY a disincentive and an extrinsic one at that, it tells them nothing about why they shouldn't do that, what they should do instead, or how they could make it better, and it can make them feel angry and distract from their learning simply by what happened, and that it can make them feel like you don't understand them) by talking, and encouraging, and helping, and love and reassurance, and I have stopped feeling guilty about it. I read too many of the UP/gentle blogs and convinced myself that "no punishment ever" is possible if you just try hard enough and it wasn't, and that brought a lot of heartache and upset and inappropriate responses from me when I really lost it due to not having a fallback option.

(back to now) I hope that wasn't too jumbled... I think I might try to formulate it into a blog post at some point. I should also add that it's quite a good idea to get your "generic punishment threat" in your head in advance, so it's to hand. We have removal of privileges now, either TV or some particular game, it works, it isn't confusing and last of all it's really not that bad. It's nothing he can't handle. You just can't deal with everything perfectly all of the time.

I have to go and do bedtime but will be back in a min.

Dishes with the pets do you think he's getting overexcited and forgetting that the chasing game isn't as fun for them as it is for him? I know DS can get like that if he's playing with other children, something takes over and he loses all sense of empathy.

I remember reading, I can't remember where now, but that children typically need a lot more reminding about rules etc than we think. It's not enough to tell them something a couple of times and then expect it to stick, and usually what we do is assume they remember and then end up telling them off because "You've been told this before!" but it's kinder and more effective to just give a quick reminder each time. So every time you get the pens out for your toddler you say "Only on the paper, OK" and for about a year or two after DS was road trained I'd say "Remember to stop at the edge", As they get older, it seems to go down better to say "Don't forget to...!" rather than "Stop at the edge please" because if you tell them, then they get all annoyed saying "I knoooow!!" but if you remind it seems to have a totally different effect, like you know they know, but you're just making sure. This works even if you're not sure they're 100% of the rule but don't want to start them off in a huff because they think you think they're a baby. I still do it, and it helps. Very often just stating your expectations - with no threats, no saying what might happen if X or Y, just saying, we're going into this shop now and you can't use your scooter inside, okay? Or whatever, seems to elicit more co-operation. I suppose because you're managing their expectations. If they expect to be able to carry on scooting and they start and it's really fun and then you stop them, then they're surprised and disappointed and perhaps a bit embarrassed and they're annoyed because they didn't even get to the good bit and it feels unfair and there's all of this going on which prevents them from reacting in a reasonable way (Oh sorry, I didn't realise, I'll stop - said no child ever ) but if you manage that expectation beforehand, they don't expect to be able to do it and therefore they're not disappointed that they can't.

Sooooo I wonder if you could try reminding to be gentle with the pets every time, in quite a specific way. I'm thinking guinea pig type of thing? You could say "The animals are out, don't forget to be slow and careful around them love." You could talk at another time about "people" who like chasing games (children, dogs, racing cars, maybe a character from a film) and "people" who don't like chasing (cats, chickens, pigs, etc) and how it might feel to be chased by something scary, like a wolf or a dinosaur. If it's still in print I had a great book when I was a child called My Cat Maisie which is about a boy who chases away a cat by being too rough and then gets chased himself by a big dog who wants to play, at the end it shows him being gentle with the cat and the cat becomes his friend. The meaning went totally over my head as a child but it's a lovely book and could be a nice starting point for a conversation. At nearly four he is young and you say there's been lots of improvement over the last 6 months, these things take time.

bertie that was a very wise post from you as usual. I think you're right. I'm on a gentle/attachment parenting fb group and it makes me feel worse I think as I'm so far from their 'ideal' even though many of them have one child which would help by itself to a degree or especially one younger child. i definitely wouldn't need to be hollering from a distance on the road as one such example- and I'm. having a recurring problem with her vanishing on her bike now she rides a pedal bike despite a reminder at the beginning of every ride to stay in sight so I know she's safe and don't lose her. I don't have such problems with my dts because they're younger and I don't have the expectations of them I have for my dd.

Need to go and put 2 back in bed, back in a bit...

I think the part about reminders is great bertie and I'll definitely try that. I normally say about the bike "what's the rule? " and normally all 3 can tell me it's to stay in sight. Not that any take the blindest bit of notice Bar my clingy dt. He's always in sight

How else can I stop myself reacting before I snap? its been snapping not shouting over unreasonable things that has been my problem today. Compounded by feeling tired. Sigh.

I am not on any gentle parenting groups, apart from this thread if it counts! The group I was talking about is an expat one for the area I'm in, someone was asking about time out and it got into a discussion. I stay away from anything that labels itself "gentle parenting" as a rule because I just get too frustrated with them. I find there is a lot of posturing, and a lot of empty headedness, a lot of fearmongering, and a fair bit of hipocrisy. I like groups where people say "Help, I'm struggling with this, what can I do?" and they get balanced advice based on real experience. I don't like ones where people are judgy or post totally unrealistic shit especially when they have one child which is four months old. Just no. It's not that I don't think people can't give advice unless they've been there (sometimes a fresh perspective IS helpful) but it sometimes comes with this sanctimonious attitude and a horrible kind of undertone of "Well, if you can just handle this as well as I'm going to in the future everything will be okay."

Seriously, ditch the groups! It's not helpful to be comparing yourself to something which isn't comparable (someone's hypothetical idea about how they would react vs your very real and very stressful situation). If you are really interested in a group which is very gentle parenting focused but has a higher proportion of parents of different aged children and a lower proportion of fridge magnet platitude sharers, try www.thegreenparent.co.uk/forums , I used to post there but ended up skipping out, ironically because of guilt(!) - it was a time where I was feeling incredibly low and anxious and probably suffering from depression looking back and I spent ALL day on the computer, and no time with DS and I knew it was wrong but I couldn't pull myself out of it, or be honest about it. It's also not a very active forum but the posters are genuinely lovely and thoughtful, although they all seem to live on houseboats and in teepees with chickens and gardens and this wonderful kind of "good life" deal which makes me feel wistful which is another reason I don't post there any more because DH is nowhere near as hippy as me. But perhaps it's changed in the last three or four years. Who knows!

With bike I'd say that's a limit thing. You ride the bike in sight or I can't let you ride the bike at all and you carry it. Of course that doesn't work if you end up carrying 2 bikes because you can't carry a third but if one child reliably stays in sight anyway, might be worth trialling for a while? Or restrict bike only to be ridden when you get to the park/wherever and not on the way there, which means it's at home for most journeys.

Hello have been lurking a bit, is it ok to join you?

Have been looking at the aha parenting site and I like the ideas but can't seem to put it properly into practice. The days all seem to end with me shouting when I'm tired and just need them to co-operate! Its harder at the moment as they are up later and with the holidays I just don't seem to get any space!

I have 4 dc ds 10 & 8 and dds 5 (6 next week) & 19 months and a dp who works stupid hours.

You all seem to be doin g well, sort of hoping if I can improve the way I deal with them things will be easier. Its the fighting that drives me crackers

Of course, hi Apples! :) Feel free to lurk and poke your head around the door every few days/weeks or jump straight in with questions or whatever you want really.

We've almost filled our first thread Can we have a funny joke name for the next one, I like it when threads do that.

bertie I agree with so much of what you've written. I'm also going to use the reminder trick.

apple welcome :) I often think with the aha stuff that if I still had one DC I'd be really good at it. 2 is pretty tough although I can pull useful stuff out of it. 4 must be... tricky There was a post on there recently which basically conceded that sometimes you just have to get out of there (the example was based at a park) and I felt encouraged that we're not going to deal perfectly with everyone in every situation. Maybe it was just the way I interpreted it! I think it might have been the one Bertie linked to a page or two ago.

I've come to feel a little differently about what I understood to be gentle parenting, but it's late and I've had a couple of drinks and I can't find a way to express it properly so will try to come back to that one.

So proud that this thread has become what it is, looking forward to the new comedy name! :)

Just read back my last post and realised again how much I correlate DS's mad behaviour to having DD. I'd love to know to what extent this is actually true.

That's the thing, you can never know, but in some ways that is who he is. Having siblings is as much a part of our identity as our nationality or culture, I think. You might as well say "he'd be different if he was growing up in Spain". ie, whether it's added challenges or helped him in some way, it doesn't do to dwell on it, it's just the way it is.

What did help someone I know with a DS a year younger than mine, he started showing a lot of behaviour challenges when his baby brother was born and she worried about it a lot, but it was almost exactly the same age as DS started showing extra challenges, with no siblings even thought of. I really think it's correlation rather than causation. They tend to go a bit mad at three, and three is often the age at which parents have a new baby.

I think I did really well today. DH has been at a work thing all day, he left early this morning before we got up and is still not home. I managed DS all day, did a fair bit of cleaning, went shopping and put him to bed without any drama at all. It was great and such a difference to the last time I had to manage him on my own, which was a year ago. (A year since we moved!) I mean yes I've been in sole charge much more than DH due to work, and before we moved I was always in charge (and often badly) but this is the first full day I've had in a long time and it just went really well.

So much to read and digest... I can't do it justice now, will have to return later! Thanks for being here everybody. Hi apple (((waves)))

Thanks for the welcome

I keep starting posts but abandoning them , i don't seem to be as articulate as you all!

another when i look at that website i'm always thinking how much easier it would be with just 1 or 2 and everything was easier then. Now my difficulties are partly down to the spread of ages. its hard to calmly defuse situations when all 3 are shouting and het up, so i end up shouting and physically removing them to different rooms.

Its hard whilst they're on holiday as we are constantly all together. i spend of time at various parks as they get much better then!

Re siblings i oftrn wonder how they would be if there were less of them or maybd bigger age gaps? Interestingly ds1 who is the quietest, often wonders what things would be like without ds2 and dd1 but nrver wishes dd2 away. Maybe it is the big age gap.
Thimg is though they are who they are partly due to.each other and i love who they are.

Anyway am making an effort to calmly deal with them and force myself to think before reacting as i think i might make things worse by steaming in all guns blazing

Sorry for long rambly me me post!

bertie glad yesterday went well

bertie there is so much great perspective from your posts. Please don't ever start holding back because you feel long winded! I think over-excitement is a lot to do with the animal chasing thing. There is so much more tenderness coming through with DS, we need to keep doing what we're doing and giving it time I think.

It is when the behaviour seems relentless and never-ending that I start to feel bleak. On reflection I could look at that more as an indicator that I need support and a break rather than making it about DS.

My DP remembers My Cat Maisie too, I will have a look around for it. Any messages in it would have gone over my head too as a child, the amount of things in kids stories I took at face value!

Gentle parenting... That's a goodie. I know that's more where I'm at values wise but the snooty humourless closed minded tone of some groups is really off-putting. I've avoided them for the most part these last few months. It can feel like getting told off by the headmistress if there is any deviation from the 'rules' - I'm thinking of one group on FB in particular. I realised it perpetuated that perfect parenting myth and thereby made me feel like shite.

It's when I'm in a phase of deep uncertainty and doubt that I find myself desperately looking about for the 'right' things to be doing. Those perfectly sure, rigid voices can become very convincing when you feel lost.

I'd rather hear real voices though. So I come here

All of you with multiple DCs I take my hat off to you. This is hard with one, I don't know how I would cope with even one more, let alone two or three more!

I absolutely love this thread. I had a better day bar one snapping incident- as usual, all my fault. They'd all had a quick fruit snack- plums, which they love. Trying to get out the door for lunch with a friend then swimming so bags of swimming gear everywhere and I'm trying to check them and out raisins in each bag for after swimming. .. open the cupboard and 3 dc all fighting to get to the front demanding a snack "no, you cannot, you've just had one so go and look for your shoooooes! " Again dh helpfully pointed out how crap that was.

bertie another fantastic post from you. I think you've got the nail on the head with the gentle groups. I find 'multiples' groups much easier as it'd more comparable as everyone has at least a set of twins if not triplets.

The bikes is tricky-
hang on, I'm even going to switch to the computer not my phone and post properly!

apple "I keep starting posts and abandoning them..." I do that all the time!

dishes "It is when the behaviour seems relentless and never-ending that I start to feel bleak. On reflection I could look at that more as an indicator that I need support and a break rather than making it about DS." I could not agree with this more. It's been one of my revelations. I've not necessarily worked out how to get that space, mind you!

dreaming I've switched to the computer tonight too! Will be posting again when I've worked out how to get the rambling in my head down onto the screen - I thought it was going to be a post about gentle parenting but it keeps going off at a tangent.

Yes, similarly on the expat group, firstly everyone is dealing with being far away from their family, most with kids who have experienced a big move and the upheaval which comes with that, and secondly there is a really strong ethic that this group is a real support lifeline for a lot of people and therefore everyone tries really, really hard to be accepting and supportive even if they don't agree with what the other person is saying. It's brilliant.

Has anyone seen mandbaby? I've just realised she hasn't posted for a while.

Thank you so much for this post! I have just come across it after having a couple of really trying days with my 3 boys (5yrs, 3yrs and 2 yrs). It's so good to know that I am not alone. My 5 yr old just seems to snap for no apparent reason and will hit out, kick, spit, hit his brothers and generally be really quite horrible and not a child that I want to spend time with. And equally he can be the most loving, caring and forgiving of boys too. It just really breaks my heart when he gets so angry.

Came to a head today when my sister & niece were leaving to go to the airport and he had already told me that he didn't want to go with them and wanted to stay at home with me (which was fine as they were all shattered).

Then when it came to them leaving, he said he wanted to go and then when I said 'no, you have already told me that you want to stay at home with me', he slapped me across the face. Then, probably a mixture of having people to stay for the week, my youngest waking 3 - 4 times during the night, I snapped too... I told him I didn't think he deserved to wave goodbye to them and took him inside telling him to stay indoors. He then opened and climbed out of the window! It seems that whatever I ask/ tell him to do, he will defy me. Time out doesn't work - he will get off the step and go upstairs. Staying in his room doesn't work, he will open the door and shout 'never' to me.

I have been reading how to talk so they listen and listen so they talk, and I have really been trying to follow through the suggestions, which is fine when we are both calm, but when he gets in to such a rage, I just don't know what to do....

Sorry for my lack of subsequent post- my DH nabbed the computer and used it all evening . Lightening post it is-

dishes Absolutely! Getting the break at the right time though? How?!

I also keep abandoning posts as all I seem to do is read, have little time to absorb, want to post immediately, blurt something out0 then read one of bertie's or anyone else's actually and realise how unhelpful and un-hought-out mine are But i will hopefully stay as I find you guys are my rock and my guides at the minute despite my lack of useful input.

I was mid post about bikes- it's hard. I mostly only do taking bikes somewhere. Cycle path minutes drive from the house is common. Both dts have v light balance bikes as I often end up carrying both. I can carry all 3 but not for too long/far. I almost always end up carrying 'difficult' DT1 on my shoulders plus his bike so rely on the other 2 riding. If we meet freinds they will help a bit but the 2 i meet (separately) one has MS and the other has her 11 month old on her bike so I feel i can't impose on them to carry. So it's hard to set the limit. She is worse with others around. The girls disappeared and were out of sight for 10 minutes the other day, way, way ahead down the cycle path. I stayed with the dts, had DT1 on shoulders as usual, can't leave 2 x 2year olds (what else can I do?!) and my friend with MS ended up trying to chase the and nearly falling over. All very less from ideal. Not sure 'no bike rides til I can trust you' will work- and it'll be such a shame.

I also worry. I had 3 dc under 2 years old for nearly 6 months. 3 in nappies for 14 months- thank goodness thaat's down to 2. Individual attention has been extremely limited. Activities and outings have been extremely limited to what I can manage (probably also why I'm so keen to be able to keep taking their bikes out?) as this is the first time in 28 months I feel I can take them pretty much anywhere by myself with many debacles . I think they would be better and better with each other if they had more indiviual attention. DH is toally not on board with my more gentle parenting and will do the 1:1 but I think he's missed the point of it being their special time and their choice totally- as in he took dt1 by himslef for the first time ever and took him to feed ducks at the river on the bike seat behind him. DT1 got pecked, cried, DH picked him up and then basically just went for a bike ride with him- not the point DH!!!!!

apples I only have 3 dc and I wonder about how much differnt it would be, specifically if I hadn't had twins (though they're so lovely together and so close, we finally have twin benefits rather than the younger days when it was just a logistical and emotional nightmare!) and also if I'd had a bigger age gap. DD was 5 days off 19 months when the dts were born and a true baby herself- she couldn't even get up stairs by herself then.

So the things I need to do are
a) make a list of the biggest triggers for me and work out how I'll delay my snapping
b) with no money or inclination to put a dc with huge separation issues into nursery how to re-work 'special time'
c) stay the hell away from the 'holier than thou' fb groups

I wonder if mandbaby has had dc3?! How far along was she? I've lost touch with that.

Oh, such a ramble and I must get to bed! I'll try and be more coherent another time.

I don't think anybody's posts here come across as non thought out. Blurting consciousness is fine - that's what I do! I have a tendency to ramble, but I also have a weird thing about getting exactly the right words, I don't know. I'm good at explaining things in an accessible way as long as I can write them down and revise it etc. When I'm talking to DH or someone else (especially in an argument/emotionally charged situation) I often say things wrong. But the picking exactly the right word for a situation is probably why I love being an English teacher.

Please, though, stop I went to a meet up of the group on Friday and had three separate people come up to me and say thank you for recommending How To Talk (which I just spam reccs for all the time, really, they should pay me!) and/or comment on my parenting advice I want to say, I'm not an expert, I'm just good with words. It's just so ironic because for so much time I have been so shit, really, I know that sounds like I'm just putting myself down but I am at times just awful at taking my own advice. Things have got a lot better since I relaxed my standards and stopped getting stressed at myself for not being perfect because ironically me getting stressed was of course making it worse. And depression does not help. I'm so-so OK now, and it's much better with DH keeping me aware of what I'm doing but I still have a tendency to go off and hide in a spiral of self defeating crappy horribleness, and when it happens as well it feels like I'm wearing a big coat of spikes so that every time I try to get close to somebody or they try to get close to me I end up hurting them accidentally and then they are mad or think I'm horrible and it's not helpful.

hello welcome. It sounds like your DS is struggling with some big feelings. (I find phrasing it like that helps me to think about it differently and stops me taking it personally). Have you looked at any of the feelings pages on Aha Parenting?

I think he does have some big feelings going on (and that is such a great way to phrase it and completely describes how he feels) and he finds it tough to tell me what it is that makes him feel so angry. When I look back to today, I can see some triggers, (and sorry if TMI) but he asked me to wipe his bum, but DS3 was being particularly clingy & whingy after waking up after a nap (although he doesn't really nap now as if he does he's a bugger to go to bed in the evening), that I didn't want to put him down as I would have been shouted at by him (DS3) so I told DS1 that he should wipe his own bum (I know he can do it at school, but when he's at home, he wants me to do it). And I think it all stemmed from there.
I haven't looked at the Aha parenting site..... will go and look now

I was wiping DS' bum for ages until DH said "You know he should really be doing it himself now." We weaned him off by telling him to do it and then ask us to check. Then we moved onto telling him how to check himself, ie, keep wiping and check the paper, when the paper is clean, then it's done. He uses half a roll of toilet paper every time he goes but we don't have to do it any more!