OK - all you non smackers - what would you do instead then?

[lisalisa]

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I think you have to get quite cute and anticipate if you have a child who tantrums and has difficult behaviour my dd1 had appalling tantrums where she injured herself and developed superhuman strength..she was literally "beside herself"and not really aware of anything outside her tantrum. The only way to deal with that is to have the child on your lap facing away with arms to her sides and your own arms tightly wrapped around her until she calms. If I didn't do this then she would hurtle around crashing into walls and jumping onto furniture. She grew out of it.

ds had long term behviour problems and with him knowing the situation was about to arise was the key so preempt the tantrum by having some plan of action. She asks for a lolly you know already that she will implode so you have a plan to divert from a tantrum. Last time you handed out lollies there was only one left so you say then that's the last of the lollies until Friday when I go to the supermarket. If you missed that opportunity then because you have had lollies after dinner the last few days over dinner say I've got a lot of shopping to get lets start a list. etc etc It's about strategy. not punishment.

it sounds to me really like smacking isn't working for you as a parenting method. it's stopping a hysterical tantrum in the short term but not looking at avoiding it and your life with her sounds very difficult. i really really sincerely recommend this book. you can get it on amazon. an mner told me about it and i'll never be able to thank her enough. thanks cristina7.

I apologise, thread has moved on since I began my reply and I can see you have calmed down a bit. Your OP and your first responses seemed very aggressive to me but I see things have changed. I hope you can work this through - MN is a great place for helping you decide what to do.

Yorkshirelass' suggestion seems good. Have you tried completely ignoring until the tantrum runs itself out even if it does last hours. If you did this, maybe she would eventually get bored of behaving this way.

Do you think that perhaps you are offering her too many choices?

I knwo that sounds kind of weird but sometimes with younger children, if they are given lots of choices - ie 3 choices of what to have, two choices of how to behave, three choices of how the pounishment for behviour will go etc etc then they can just feel they have lost control and it is too much to deal with and the only way they can feel in control again is to control the person responsible for the choices - ie you!

I know these days it is all, let the child have choice, free speech etc. But I really believe that often, they respond better too very limited choices so that they can clearly see what they are dealing with.

Sometimes IMO they need to know that it is just a no and there is no extended discussion, emapathy or anything, it is just plain no.

soph which book was that?

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ignore ignore ignore

leave the room, keep going back and ask 'are you ready to behave?' and leave if you get screeched at. May take a while.

dd1 has not really had tantrums but dd2 does regularly, she is only 22 months so obviously expected, whereas at 5 I would not tolerate as much.

Also, I wouldn't give the longwinded explanations, you are the parent and therefore in charge IMO and what you say goes. I always hear people in shops waffling on and on about why their children can't have X and Y - just say NO! Any whinging, repeat NO! I think they understand that far more than going into great detail.

I have smacked once or twice in anger and felt the biggest shit in the world when the little face creases up in shock and tears. I have a temper and have to leave the room and count to 10 to avoid this.

I can perhaps try and explain myself better.

You have the upper hand because you know she tantrums often. She is effectively lost to the world once in a tantrum and as others have said she won't snap out of it easily once started so the smack provides the shock.

Children with challenging behaviour, I know ds is like this, have very rapid mood changes..which scare them they take a long time to learn that they have this issue if they ever do learn and even longer to learn to conrol it if they ever do.

As the adult you are ahead of them. So you have to always be aware of the potential triggers, because preventing a tantrum is much the easier way and she will learn from that. You can't reason with a child in a full blown tantrum.

securmummy - snap on the 'no discussion' thoughts!

Really sympathise with you LisaLisa, as my ds (6)used to be (& sometimes still is) like this: completely unreasonable, shouting and screaming so loud that he couldn't even hear what I said & seemingly impervious to any kind of negotiation on my behalf.
I don't want to sound smug because I really don't feel it but I never smacked him because it just wasn't an option for me. Even though my palm itched to make contact with his annoying, noisy, ungrateful, unreasonable little body - I promised myself I would never do it. So, I was forced to find alternative methods.
I am now a ruthless enforcer of consequences. I don't have long discussions about anything. So, I would have said "No you can't have an ice lolly there aren't enough". If he then kicked off, I would have got right down to his level and said very clearly, if you continue behaving like this after I count to 3, then there will be no tv, no using the internet, early bed or whatever and told him that it was his choice. Then I rigourously enforce my sanctions. I would also re-iterate quite clearly why I was carrying out what I said I would.
I also do lots of praise wherever possible. With my ds, appalling behaviour is often triggered over-tiredness, total over-excitement or craving for attention. By focusing on anything he does well, it takes away the need for attention seeking by being a pain in the butt! If he is ridiculously over-tired or over-excited I very calmly put him to bed & ignore the screaming & limb thrashing. He either goes to sleep or thrashes out his tantrum until he calms down. It has been known for this to take over an hour though.

Agree with OO about not discussing. Long winded explanations just don't make sense to small children.

i've just told my ds i don't like him very much when he acts like that and he won't have any friends if he carrys on.
he dosn't like playing with wingers and winers and nor do others.
seems to be working so far.
a tip if you have some yoghurts use old lolly sticks and freeze they are ready in an hour and just like mini milks.

strategise to prempt tantrums
give two alternatives or iof food let her write it on a shopping list for you (distratcion)
examine why you feel so angry about it are you frustrated with the time you have to give her.
be kind and considerate in how you talk to her (ie help take cosssie off let her see you are making time for her)
time out in a chiil out zone (not bedroom and not alone)
hug and hold her ask her what is wrong

lisalisa re my comment on throwing your child in bed

I have a 5yo too and other children
but when i say bed he knows i mean business
until he behaves himself

no need to be flippant

If she won't stay in her bedroom then put her somewhere she can't escape from. I used to shut ds out in the garden. I could see him from the kitchen window but we were separated from each other & the noise was not quite so deafening. Without an audiance & a reaction a tantrum gets very boring & eventually he would stop.

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lisalisa TBH saying that you can olnly do something so many times because of..... is IMO a bit of a cop out!

Most of us have more than one child and soemtimes you just have to say "right I am going to sort out the behaviour and you are all going to benefit from the results so therefore you will have to bear with me"

I know that is not "helpful" but it is true!

At the risk of really winding you up - which I have thus far tried not to do - do you think that maybe the methods you have tried have not been tried quite right or with full ocnviction?

You sound like you are convinced that a smack is your only way to stop things on some occasions - but it isn't, otherwise we would all do it! The fact that you believe you are ignoring tantrums and yet you are also trying to comfort her means taht you are not ignoring. You say that you used ignoring on your otherchildren for toddler tantrums but she is not a todler. I agree she is not - but she is behaving like one, so IMO treat her like on - for this part of her behaviour!

Not all children understand the link between actions and consequences. This is true of ds. It does make their challenging behaviour very difficult to manage.

You have to have a very quickly enforced link between the unwanted behaviour and the correction. Your scenario lasted far too long and went through too many attempted resolutions. Keep it very simple. Pick your battles with care.

lisalisa, you ask: 'why would she want me to do that?'
because she knows you hate doing it
she has made you do something despite yourself = she wins

Actually - I am sure you have convinced yourself - your post there with the list - is just a list of excuses!

So they don't have locks - use the garden - or buy one!!! They are not hard ot fit!

Think I have had enough of trying to help - you clearly don't want to be helped - ahh well - who knows maybe things could have improved for you all horror

I have airily said loudly 'oh well, I will just make biscuits with dd1 then shall I? Here you are dd1, will you test the choc chips?' accompanied by loud banging of cupboard doors and rustling of contraband.

ANY SORT OF DISTRACTION.

Takes a LOT of effort though when you just want to screech 'of ffs shut the f up you little shit' .

Lets keep the posts helpful purlease

xxxx

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