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Behaviour/development

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OK - all you non smackers - what would you do instead then?

301 replies

lisalisa · 13/07/2006 11:20

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JanH · 14/07/2006 16:20

lisalisa's dd probably won't do it at school. DD2 never did, she used to bottle it up for later, and would come out of school and let fly at me at the gate with the whole day's frustrations.

sophable, they are born with a temperament. Are that it's entirely as a result of parental projections and expectations; or that it's possible to alter it?

JanH · 14/07/2006 16:21

oops, lost a phrase - Are you suggesting that...!

kipper22 · 14/07/2006 16:25

but if not lisalisa's dd then someone's child will have a tantrum at school. if it starts at 9 am and is still going on by lunchtime, should the teacher give the child a quick smack?
[kipper nervously still play DA!]

JanH · 14/07/2006 16:39

DD1 doesn't remember anyone ever having a tantrum when she was at school (and she does remember a boy in Reception having diarrhoea when he was wearing shorts and it went all down his legs, so I think a full-blown tantrum in class would have been equally memorable!)

Quote - "there'd be no point in having a tantrum at school!"

Caligula · 14/07/2006 16:44

I threaten to report her to Mumsnet (or "the laydeez on the internet" as she knows you lot as)

She is right at the moment having an enormous tantrum and shouting "no please don't tell them mummy! Please no. Please no! It's not funny..."

shimmy21 · 14/07/2006 17:22

I have 2 dss. 1 has never had a tantrum in his life. The second (now 7) has the potential to take up tantruming as an olympic sport. He shows no sign of growing out of them either but is entirely capable of planning them so that he is never ever seen tantruming by his friends.

I completely agree with the non-smackers here but have to confess that twice in ds2's life I have smacked him out of desperation, frustration and exhaustion so I do know what you are going through -and my god, doesn't smacking have an instant effect? The screaming stops instantly, the desired behaviour happens and suddenly everything is over. BUT I don't believe that smacking is right. i do believe that by smacking ds those 2 times I damaged his trust in me, set a terrible example to him and potentially made his behaviour worse. It is oh so tempting to take the easy route but it's the effect you're having over the long run you need to bear in mind.
FWIW our system of punishments involves docking 5p from ds's pocket money after a warning and he cares about this seemingly far more than he cared about those smacks.

tenalady · 14/07/2006 17:25

Naughty room for 4 mins

tenalady · 14/07/2006 17:26

When out I still threaten the naughty room when we get home, I know its not instant response but he hates it so much that he does normally behave!

fistfullofnappies · 14/07/2006 17:59

lisalisa
some children are just more challenging than others. I've smacked mine in the sort of situation that you described in your o p. I think its important not to smack as a reflex action though.
Mine dont respond to star charts, they just laughed at the naughty step, refuse to stay in their bedrooms...I refuse to resort to bribery, so discipline in our house is very much on a play it by ear basis.

unicorn · 14/07/2006 19:20

Lisalisa,
you know, I reckon what you are really after is nothing to do with the smacking/not smacking debate.
I think you are tired, frazzled, stressed out and need support.
I think we can all offer that here (no matter what we think about smacking) can't we?
Maybe you also need a bit more RL support too?

Heathcliffscathy · 14/07/2006 19:23

I'm suggesting that the assertion it's 'just how they are' is a mistaken one.

and i'm suggesting that the biggest factor in the behavioural development of NT children is the environment in which they are brought up which includes all family interrelationships and how they are parented, not their genetic make up.

so I guess I'm saying both.

I'm not stating all this from the smug standpoint of someone that thinks she is 'getting it right' btw. far from it.

Heathcliffscathy · 14/07/2006 19:25

great post unicorn

my last post was replying to janh btw...

blueshoes · 14/07/2006 19:43

On the issue of nature v nurture (sorry to take this thread on a tangent), I do believe that children are born with a certain temperament but environment can shape it for better or worse, particularly during the first 3 years when the brain is still forming connections. And yes, it is possible for the environment to be different in the same family because of gender, birth order, parental perceptions/prejudices etc. There is support for this in studies, though the debate will always rage on.

But apart from temperament, there is also the relationship between the child and parent that over time, will trigger certain reactions. For example, I am super stubborn and strong-willed (wonder where my dd gets it from), and I am generally sullen with my mother, occasionally descending into screaming at her. She used to hit me - that is my most lucid memory of my childhood relationship with her. No doubt, my mother thinks I am still the difficult child she brought up.

With my dh, I am actually quite reasonable and don't shout- (oh well, not more than a handful of times over the years. That is because I feel I am listened to and he does not smack me!

Anyway, in a long winded way, what I am trying to say is that the potential damage to the relationship between an already strongwilled child and his/her parent is the most worrying thing about physical punishment.

drosophila · 14/07/2006 19:56

OK response to first post_

You engaged her in too much dialogue initially. No ice lolly -tough. This is not a one off there have been many episodes that have led to this so hard to give advice on one occasion when really you want/need advice on your discipline/punishment technique you have employed with her since day 1. Having said that if I found myself in your shoes on that day I would have let her rave and rant for 5 hours if that's what it took. I would have threatened her with various sanctions (which I would have followed through) that I thought would have had an impact. E.G No telly for a week or no sweet for a week (whatever she likes) and the next time the tantrum would probable only last an hour.

I would have given her a couple of warning and said that if tantrum continues I will do X or Y. This is your first warning...

My niece was the worst behaved child I have ever seen ever and they smacked and they smacked and then the smacking didn't work so he punched and punched and now at the age of 15 she is reasonably well behaved but has NO relationship with her Dad and not much with her Mum. What would you have done had the smack NOT worked?

Greensleeves · 14/07/2006 20:09

Sorry - he punched his child? Surely that's pretty rare. Not every parent who slaps a child to shock it out of a tantrum is at risk of progressing onto punching it?

I am completely anti physical punishment, but that seems quite extreme.

JanH · 14/07/2006 20:21

But in lisalisa's case (and in mine) the smack did work. We're not proud of it but it worked. Strategies that are effective with most other children are not effective with all, and constant reiteration of how things should have been done doesn't make me feel that I was wrong, just that you don't understand how challenging and wearing this behaviour can be.

As I said before DD2 still has what I call tantrums, she still falls out with all of us on occasion, but apart from those occasions she still has a great relationship with me and her dad and her siblings.

She was born stroppy. My HV (a lovely woman) always said her abiding image of DD2 was of her scowling from her pushchair. She can be delightful but equally she can be appalling, and when she is appalling there is no talking to her or reasoning with her, even now. When she's not appalling she can talk about it and cheerfully admit that she's impossible sometimes. She has friends with indulgent parents who have grown up to take everything they have for granted and treat their parents with disdain - she dislikes that attitude and doesn't do that herself.

Possibly, had she been my first child, I might have handled her behaviour differently; possibly she wouldn't have behaved as she did; but because she wasn't my first child, I knew that I hadn't made her like that.

saggarmakersbottomknocker · 14/07/2006 20:44

'born stroppy' - just like my ds2, Jan. I'd only delivered his head and he was screaming - pretty much set the scene for his childhood.

Greensleeves · 14/07/2006 20:45

"bottom knocker"

aviatrix · 14/07/2006 21:30

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Mercy · 14/07/2006 21:41

what does your parenting guru suggest? (who is it btw?)

aviatrix · 14/07/2006 21:51

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Mercy · 14/07/2006 21:58

Not heard of him before tbh. Why does he think punishment and rewards are detrimental?

Greensleeves · 14/07/2006 21:59

Franny is a big fan of Alfie Kohn too.

FrannyandZooey · 14/07/2006 22:01

Aviatrix converted me, Greeny

so you can blame her

aviatrix · 14/07/2006 22:06

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