DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

God I stopped at the end of the first page - some of you are being ridiculously rude to the OP who came to ask for HELP for FFS. Typical MN hysteria where people project and read a ton into the OP - as if he can explain his whole relationship and life in a few paragraphs. If he was a total asshole he wouldn't give a shit.

OP you have to engage your daughter where she is and not get hung up on wishing she was different - kids are hyper sensitive to parental disapproval and have a long memory. If your approach is not working than you need to revise. You don't want to inadvertently help her to feel like the "black sheep" of the family. This designation can really get steam in teen years and wreak havoc.

There are lots of reasons a 10 year old can be in a funk and struggle with esteem issues. Some may probably have nothing to do with you at all. It is hard to be a 10 year old girl! There is a lot going on socially, physically and emotionally.

I think the key is to be supportive, listen, be positive, take an interest in the things she is good at/shows an interest in (but don't go over the top as that might feel like pressure), never cease to leave the door open for communication. Be her soft place to land and let her find her footing. I think exposing her to a variety of things and keeping it be fun will be the way to help her develop her own interests.

Never forget how important you and your wife are to her - how essential your approval. You don't want her to look for approval everywhere but at home.

I'm with Madbuslady here, you are quite scary - are you ever wrong? do you ever make mistakes or do something silly and laugh about it? You sound dreadfully serious about life. Home isn't work and home isn't school.

I'd be interested to know what their mother thinks of the situation?

I rarely say things like this on MN, but you sound like an awful and grossly misguided parent. I am not a perfect parent BTW.

Granted there are worse parents in the world, but your OP made my skin crawl.

Your poor DD.

Can I ask, do you have problems with your self esteem? I knew a dad and mum like the (separate families btw,not a couple) who although both were incredibly intelligent and interested in everything in the world around them didn't have high self esteem. Both had average children- average is fine! Most children WILL be average!- but their low self esteem meant that they put their own feelings onto the children- so when their child didn't achieve what they hoped, instead of accepting that, lowering expectations and letting a child be a child, they felt like they were a failure almost because of their child, because they expected so much, when that didn't become reality, their own low self esteem meant they couldn't really believe their child was average, because they were too scared too. Their own insecurity meant to reassure themselves, they blamed the child for their attitude/not trying hard enough/etc; because they were too scared to admit that their child was perfectly fine and average. I can't explain it very well, but essentially, because they worried about being failures themselves (they definitely weren't, did incredibly well at everything!) they put this pressure onto their own children.

If you have time to go to museums, your wife can go with your younger daughter, and you can bake or cook with your daughter, or go on a cycle ride. Next week, swap this around, you go with your younger daughter somewhere SHE wants to go- of she can stay at home even. Your daughter has valuable skills- cooking, cycling and more.

Praise her all the time. Hugs a shy little kid? Tell her how proud you are for raising a child like her. Tell her that most children aren't as lovely as that, aren't as kind as that and aren't as special as that, that you are proud of her for being that. Make sure you don't focus on achievement in the academic sense, as in, winning, but in her personality, because she seems great. Don't just tell her that, BELIEVE that. Write a list of every single wonderful thing she has ever done for you and anyone else that you can remember, and add to it when you find more, and look it and remind yourself of how wonderful your dd is.

" They're only opening the doors they think she should peek through, not the ones she wants to peek through."

I don't understand what that actually means in the context of our DD.

We are enabling (and in many cases encouraging) her to do the things she wants to do. She likes swimming - she has lessons, and gets taken to the pool at other times on top of that. She likes watching TV and DVDs - we let her, quite a lot, and often far-from-educational stuff eg Spongebob. She likes reading - I take her to the library and order books by authors she says she likes (and when I ask her about her favourite parts of books I'm trying to expand on that). She likes cooking - we let her cook and bake and I helped her do her Brownie cooking badge. Recently she wanted to go to soft play - I took her, even though she had to sneak past the reception desk bow-legged because she was slightly over the maximum height! She likes playing silly games on the computer - we let her, though if she's been playing at virtual make-up for an hour or so we might tell her she's been on there long enough.) She's not telling us about wanting to follow any other interests.

And the museum with the pipes was a hands-on science museum for kids where DH also helped her get inside a giant bubble and I had a virtual exercise-bike race with her which she enjoyed; it wasn't just theory.

I do take the point that reading could be a private thing for her that she doesn't want to discuss, though it does seem a bit of a shame to me if she likes a book but can't say anything about the book or why she likes it (not just from an academic point of view, but because it's potentially a good topic of conversation with friends.)

The general message from many posters here seems to be we should back off, stop asking questions and leave her alone more - but I genuinely don't understand how that interrelates with the 'opening doors' thing.

Ok so if you will be happy if she is happy, that's great! Is it that you don't know what makes her happy?

It sounds like you are actually doing a great job and have a daughter to be proud of. She probably doesn't know what makes her happy, or if it makes her happy now it won't next week or next year or in 10 years because she is growing up and changing in herself. You need to give her space to do this. Have confidence in her and show her that you do. She will gain confidence through this and become more outgoing/interested in the wider world. In time. But she has time as she is 10.

noobie She posted as Melpomene, a very helpful and interesting post as it shows up the flaws in a well-meaning approach, I think.

@CinnabarRed says

WTAF was your last post to purrpurr about? What on earth do you think she said that justified that?

I wonder what justified the nasty abuse from post 1 onwards. But purrpurr kind of implied the abuse was legitimate ("underneath the flaming...are we all just a shower of bastards") and I disagree. The abuse was significantly less justified than anything I have ever said or done to my daughter, and attempts to mitigate it risk people looking utterly hypocritical.

OTOH, if (s)he meant that it was not justified and that there was otherwise good advice between the nastiness, then please accept my apologies.

I would also like to hear from the mother.

Actually, I don't like the abuse you've received on here.

But I've re-read every one of your posts, many of them several times, and what comes across from them, to me, is strong disapproval of your DD and a desire for advice on how to mould her to your idealised image (academic, lateral thinker, articulate).

You described her a curate's egg. Can you honestly not see how that implies the strongest critcism of her? And how offensive it sounds? Answer honestly, would you ever describe your DD2 in that way?

Not one your posts comes across, to me at least, as an acknowledgement that your DD is fundamentally a fine, normal, 10 year old girl, and that what you want is input into how to improve your relationship with her.

I'm willing to bet all the money in my purse against all the money in your wallet that at least 90% of the other people on this thread are reading it the same way I do.

And, actually, now I come to look again, you haven't acknowledged a single idea as one you might try. Not one. Does that tell you anything?

@mykingdomforasleep thanks. Will need to re-read that when I calmer.

The mum has posted upthread.

I do agree with cinnabar. Several of us have explained why we read the thread as we do - and surely it's better to hear it from a bunch of internet strangers, than to risk leaving it and finding your DD feels about her dad as some of us feel about ours?

@CinnabarRed I did not describe her as a curate's egg, I was recounting why my OP did not contain the good stuff, and suggested THE POST would be like the curate's egg if I did.

This thread has made my brain hurt - OP you come across as so defensive (yes there has been some insulting posts but the majority are trying to help), you write in a spiky, aggressive way, constantly trying to sound intelligent/wordy as if you are so superior to the rest of us.

Please stop. Please just chill out and enjoy your daughter. Stop feeling you are responsible for every small aspect of her development and personality.

The academic/social pressure you put under her oozes off the page in everything you write.

You need to take a major step back and just be a loving, nurturing, supportive presence in her life - then hopefully things will improve.

Roasted that sounds quite possible. I also think there's an element of protectiveness in that sort of scenario. The low self-esteem parent may be anxious and disappointed not only because the child's lack of something reflects badly on them, but because they genuinely fear for the child as a result of that lack. Look at the OP's response to the competition entry idea, classic "the world is a big scary place and you might fail" messaging.

FixItUpChappie ...some of us are only hanging in here because we I have the feeling that there is a serious communication barrier which we needed to find a way around. And by jove I think we've done it

Never knew that all those years of finding ways to get through to XH would come in handy!

Oh bullshit OP!

You said 'Well because there is a problem I want to solve. I may have got it out of proportion (as some helpful posters have noted) but simply trumpeting my DD1's strengths didn't seem to communicate what I wanted - namely the problem at hand. Curate's egg?'

The 'problem' is your child and your meaning was that like the curate's egg, she's bad but parts of her are excellent. Really crap thin to say about your child.

This is what you actually wrote:

Well because there is a problem I want to solve. I may have got it out of proportion (as some helpful posters have noted) but simply trumpeting my DD1's strengths didn't seem to communicate what I wanted - namely the problem at hand. Curate's egg?

There is absolutely nothing in that paragraph to suggest that you are referring to your post as the curate's egg - it reads more naturally to me that you're referring to the problem at hand, i.e. your DD1, for the reasons I've already explained, as the curate's egg.

IF she likes swimming, and cooking, and reading books, and watching telly, and probably Loafing Around Pointlessly And Irritatingly, what on earth do you want her to do on top? She sounds fine.

I probably say that because I like swimming, and cooking, and reading books and watching telly (especially if Horrible Histories is on) and Loafing Around Pointlessly On MN, and I'm actually pretty well-functioning. Have degrees and job and friends and everything.

She is canny and has a sophisticated Theory of Mind that her elder sibling either does not, or does not exploit

Jeez, you do realise that raising children is not a scientific experiment don't you ? You talk about your children as if they are specimens in a laboratory.

BTW, I'm posting now for exactly the same reason as Res - I am truly coming to believe that you have a communications issue here (whether as the main, or in addition to other, problems I'm not yet sure) and I want to show you why.

what you describe makes sense. Is this not why I posted?

If you saying that your first post was made because you understand the self-esteem dynamic (flow chart) then I am at a loss to understand why you reacted so badly to people saying that it was your input that needed to change, and advising what you should be saying/doing.
Or why you then disagreed with those posts at every turn.

If you meant "Is this not why I posted" somewhat rhetorically, meaning that the flow chart has given you the answer you were seeking, then that is really good news ....and the whole thread is full of posts advising what can be said & done to ensure that changing 'input' will alter the outcome.

I'm done.

Melpomene, you wrote: We are enabling (and in many cases encouraging) her to do the things she wants to do

Yes, I can see indeed that you are enabling them. What I can't see is that you're encouraging them, or valuing them for the achievements that they are.

That's the difference.