DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

@noobieteacher there was a large bathroom with a shower at one end and toilet / sink at the other. There were speakers at both ends, so some of us were showering and headbanging, whilst others were dancing in a variety of states. Then when one had finished the shower, the next took their turn and so on. I have probably said enough!

I'll get mel to comment on what she thinks of my relationship with DD1.

I think you're all just fine really, you just need to realise that and celebrate it. The times that make our relationships strong are the times spent doing 'small' things - Seamus Heaney (RIP) put it rather well here -

When all the others were away at Mass
I was all hers as we peeled potatoes.
They broke the silence, let fall one by one
Like solder weeping off the soldering iron:
Cold comforts set between us, things to share
Gleaming in a bucket of clean water.
And again let fall. Little pleasant splashes
From each other?s work would bring us to our senses.
So while the parish priest at her bedside
Went hammer and tongs at the prayers for the dying
And some were responding and some crying
I remembered her head bent towards my head,
Her breath in mine, our fluent dipping knives?
Never closer the whole rest of our lives.

Aw that's made me cry, suffered a lot of family deaths recently. Exactly life is about the bits in between, the down time. OP you need to just back off and enjoy it, life is too short to obsess. This is as good as it gets. A wife/life partner, two smart children, a holiday.

Also remember that girls at 10 may start to draw away physically, especially from Dads, it's normal, don't take it personally. It starts with the physical space and then the head space - they need their own space, both kinds.

Thanks posters, this site needs "like" buttons :)

Popped back, and so pleased to see we felt that we were definitely cueing her with negative reactions to her responses and that had to stop. We have agreed to help each other spot us doing it, as well as making the additional effort to not do it.

It took a lot of discussion, and some flame throwing, but as far as I can see ....RESULT

So ... from me, for not actually being a narc, and for having the guts to come and openly say that you have taken input on board, discussed and chosen to change.

I have just made my way through this thread. It really has some ups and downs. Pleased that there seems to be some good results to come from this.

A few times, OP, your posts have suggested what could be an unhealthy level of competition between your DDs. Eg. Comparing 1:1 activities. It rings alarm bells with me because DH and his brother were allowed / encouraged to constantly compare themselves as children. The end result is a really poor relationship between them and simmering resentment of their parents for perceived favouritism.

My DDs are both much younger than yours but whenever DD1 says "that's not fair..." I try to explain any differences but, when relevant, I am also clear that I will not accept any conversation that starts with "I can do this better than her". When DD1 talks like that about her friends we have a conversation about every one being different and all having different strengths.

Both my DDs have a medical condition that will make some physical activities hard for them. DD2 appears to be affected more. So I will absolutely never accept DD1 saying anything that belittles an achievement of DD2. The reverse will also be true.

we were definitely cueing her with negative reactions to her responses

I'm glad you have recognised this, in an adult relationship this would be seen as emotional abuse. I am surprised that you have both been doing this, I had some idea that Mummy would be playing soft cop.

My over-concern with your 'shower scene' is brought about because we have just been on holiday and kept stumbling across naturist beaches and I am still traumatised.

My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects ?.

OK, OK, I?ve stopped giggling now. Seriously. DD2 is very naturally ?your type? but DD1 is a different type. In fact she is developing just as nicely, but she has a different personality and a different style. Your attempts at ?encouragement? (at least one of which was unfortunately clumsy and offputting!) probably feel to DD1 like encroachment. Give her space and let her be herself.

As for building up her relationship with you, you need to do more of what she enjoys and less of what you think she should enjoy. Educational TV my smelly arse. (I enjoy educational TV and so does my DS and I have a PhD in something obscure yet you?re turning me into Jim Royle. So as for what effect you must be having on your DD1 ) If she enjoys cooking with you, then you make time to do that with her. You do what she wants and for that little bit of time you let her set the pace and you do it her way. And if you want more about how to do this kind of motivation then look up ?child-led play? or ?child-directed parenting? or similar ? Sue Jenner?s book ?Parent-Child Game? is good at this.

And to return to frivolity, have you ever considered going on Wife Swap or Holiday Showdown? You wouldn?t tear me away from that episode!

Try reading the 5 Love languages for Children by Gary Chapman (there is also a website). If you can get past the slightly geeky Americaness of it (no offence to Americans!) its a real eye opener. Your daughter may be feeling very unloved and perhaps has backed off from responding to you or engaging with you for this reason - i'm not saying you don't love your daughter and that you show it to her in YOUR way - but she needs to feel loved HER way. Only then may she start to open up and engage in the way you hope for - or in her own way. Our children need to FEEL loved before they can develop to their fullest potential. I remember around the same age completely shutting down from my parents despite growing up in a household where we were provided with plenty of healthy activities (swimming, dancing, baking, going to the beach etc) and spent hours in my room reading so I didnt have to engage with my parents. Looking back I now know that it was because I felt unloved. Have you also considered depression? Other than this advice, I suggest just stop worrying about whether she lacks motivation or any interests and 'just be' with her whether or not you have some amazing intellectually stimulating conversation.

It's very easy to love a child who is just like you or just like the ideal child you have in mind. It's no effort at all.

The real challenge and the real test of big hearted parenting is loving a child who is very different to you, or who has behaviours that you find challenging.

You could also think about how your relationship with your elder daughter can encourage YOU to develop as a person and deepen your wisdom about what is important in life; parenting is not entirely a top down process; you need to grow and broaden with them.

Sounds like you had a clear set of views about what children should be like and how they should develop. But lo and behold, you have one daughter who doesn't quite fit into that schema. Time to think again!

We start off parenting our imaginary children and babies, onto whom we can project all our own desires, preferred personality traits, and unfulfilled ambition. But, uh oh, they grow up and suddenly they are their own person and not the idealised hypothetical person we had in our minds' eye. It's a challenge to our narcissism and a healthy one, one that will hopefully allow us to accept that our once totally dependent baby that we thought was our blank canvas upon which to paint, is actually destined to leave us, be a separate adult and live their own life, totally beyond our control.

Good luck. Your elder daughter sounds absolutely lovely. Do try to find a different lens through which to look at her. There are plenty of other things to value in life beyond being academically very curious and go-getting. She sounds like a lovely person who is kind and sensitive.

Haven't had time to read the replies, but (except for the interest in clothes) I was that child. I was recently diagnosed with Asperger's as an adult.

OP, I am 35, in senior management and earning a good wage. My interests are reading (and I don't discuss what I'm reading with others), cooking, walking, dogs, my family and eating out and buying nice food (not all in that order!). I also love my own company.

When I was 10 I did not excel at anything specifically, would not have been able to explain why a pipe makes a noise when you put a flame on it and I am not sure I know now. Probably would have thought my dad was asking a particularly bone question about what a flame does to the air around it and produced a sarcastic response like 'cools the air' and definitely withdrawn if when I showed enthusiasm for something I was warned it might be tough. Some people don't thrive when told stuff like that. Despite the fact that I appeared to be quite meh, I am doing quite well for myself and,if I say so myself I am a fun mummy who's doing a reasonable job of bringing up my DD.

I take a huge interest in books about communist history and politics or monarchist history (dichotomous I know) but talking about it to others, or joining a book club leaves me cold.

When I was 10 I did like going out on my bike, smashing a ball about with a tennis racquet, roller booting and making a mess attempting awful pastry in the kitchen. I did all this unsupervised and enjoyed myself.

My point is, she sounds fine, will probably do well and, yes, she's not meeting your expectations but that actually does not matter. Oh, and I thrived when I started earning for myself and moved out of home aged 18 .

I actually think the OP has been given a bit of a rough ride here. Of course in his posts he seems negative about her. That's why he was writing the post in the first place to get help for something he was worrying about...I mean if someone wrote, 'I can't function, my 10 month old never sleeps and cries a lot', would we all jump on them saying 'Wow you sound like a nightmare parent. How negative you seem towards your baby.' No! People would sympathise and exchange tips or at least not judge. When you ask for help on a specific issue, of course you only write about that. I have written many 'negative' things in the past, that is because these are the things I want help with. I don't need to tell you all whilst asking for help on a potty training thread, that actually my DS2 is gorgeous, funny, good at building towers with mega blocks because it's not relevant to the problem I am dealing with.

However OP, I did agree the way you immediately shot down her idea to enter the competition was not the best idea. It's so so important to let them believe in themselves and have good self esteem. Even if she had have 'scribbled' something and not won, se needs to learn how to not win and just do it for the fun of entering, that is how children become motivated as they grow up.

She's only 10. The way you said about 'refining ideas' etc, it just sucks all the fun out of it. It becomes more like a chore or a school project rather than something she was chosing to do as a hobby.

Life isn't a test, especially not to children. It doesn't matter if she knows why the pipe made a sound but I see why you would want her to at least be interested in things. My DS1 is only 6 but he would not rest until he found out EXACTLY why it made a sound. He asks questions upon questions and sometimes I have barely finished explaining one thing before he's firing more questions....it's exhausting but I see how much information and knowledge he gains just from chatting non stop. I am sure you see your 8 year old taking an interest and being inquisitive and assume there must be something wrong with DD1. I am pretty sure you have absolutely nothing to worry about though. 10 year olds are not supposed to be self motivated. She doesn't need to have a specific talent or gift. She's her and she needs to know that that's OK.

You obviously care about her a lot and want the best for her. Sometimes it's easy to put pressure on our eldest. I remember getting flash cards and doing ABC with DS1 when he was a baby and feeling frustrated by things he wasn't interested in . I look back now and just think wtf???! DS2 has had a much easier ride.

For what it's worth I admire the fact that the OP has stuck with the thread and taken on board some of the comments, despite (in my opinion) being judged rather harshly in the beginning.

OP and mrs OP, this is a very sad thread. What comes over the most (and I say this as someone who recognises that I may one day fall into the 'please be more like me' trap with my dc who is younger than your daughters) is that you both need to calm down.
Please.
Your daughter may well be in preteen mode (afraid I don't have the experience to comment on this) but the desperation coming through your posts is striking and If I were your daughter I'd really really hate the pressure.

If you can't lay off with all the attempts to engage etc i seriously suggest some family counselling - because you both think your way is the right way. You can't possibly know that at this stage.
I was a rather lazy moody child who hated all science type things and was rubbish at maths (which my Dad despaired of). I was naturally under confident and still am. However I ultimately did well at school (not in maths or science!) and have a great, professional career. My parents really loved me and helped set me up for being lucky enough to meet my lovely husband (luck plays its part there I know).

I'm rambling but I'm trying to say that if you try to take the pressure off her, stop testing her, stop trying to find common ground, she may well gravitate towards you. Before you know it, you may have a great relationship and she might be telling you about an interest.

But hey even if she doesn't, chances are she'll carry on being just fine and can build on a happy childhood later.

I know a few parents like you and I find your style of parenting well-meaning but bizarre.

I take my children to museums but I don't ask them questions I wait for them to ask me questions. Your helicopter over involved style of parenting could actually end up hindering her progress rather than helping her achieve.

I always remember taking my 8 year old niece to see a play in London before I had children, I was rattling away talking about the various characters and I asked her to tell me about her favourite part of the day and she told me in all seriousness that it was the little chocolate bit in the bottom of her cornetto!

Children absorb so much you don't have to turn every activity into a lesson. Just let her be and she may just surprise you .

Reading is a direct form of escapism. . I agree this is a sad thread

For goodness sake - nearly everything is "a direct form of escapism": video games, films, tv, dancing, riding your bike through a forest.....

Yes I agree I could have handled the competition thing better.

I would say that there were two factors contributing to my response to her:

1. She didn't say she wanted to enter the competition, she was much more interested in the prize, which was the artist that Jacqueline Wilson employs coming to your school and helping with creative work. When kids want to bang a scribble in to the magazine of their choice, fair enough (I might make them pay for a stamp if it's a regular thing though). When they want to win, that's a different matter altogether.

1. DD1 has entered competitions before, and not won. This has frustrated her, and no amount of "there are lots of people taking part" and "it's often just luck" has helped. As much as my expectations are an issue, so are hers. As a parent I would like to pass on the wisdom that we own our expectations, and as a child they are bound to be less reinforced than they are as an adult, and therefore more amenable to editing.

Having said all that I would have preferred to engage her with some of her ideas, and actually got her started. I genuinely believed she would, perhaps a little reluctantly, do this anyway, and got a shock when she backed away entirely. Speaking about it to her last week, I apologised for being clumsy, and she said she wasn't really that bothered about entering anyway, though I'm not sure how true that may be. But we have, in any event, had a good week, they are enjoying being back at school and she tells me about her day in a high-density burst the moment I get back from work after a hug (barely time to get my crash-helmet off).

In short, and with a bit of perspective, it does seem a "glass partly empty" matter. That's not to say there isn't an issue; but we all have issues, don't we? I hope I can find a way help her improve those things in a loving way.

I'm glad you apologised to her, but you really need to try to put yourself in her shoes now. It seems that these anonymous people have a better understanding of your dd and her needs than you do.

Your language is interestingly neutral but your behaviour shows a strong need to be in control and very little empathy.

Your intentions are good but there is a point when controlling people kid themselves into believing that they are doing it for the children's good, when in truth they are doing it because they don't want to lose their power. That is the definition of oppression.

Leave them alone and they will come home. Re-read your last sentence. She does not need improving, there is nothing wrong with her.

@noobieteacher I tried putting myself in her shoes. Now I have sore feet.

I'm sorry, your post comes across as patronising, passive-aggressive, ironically unempathetic and unhelpful. Maybe you should re-read your own.

I'm sorry if I have upset you but it is only my opinion.

What does MrsWhenindoubt think?

@noobieteacher Mrs whenInDoubt and I are to some extent happy that some constructive advice has emerged inamongst the screeds of variously hateful / self-righteous / ignorant / offensive / unconstructive dross that has dominated this thread (I'm not accusing you all or even any of being those things, by the way, that's just our summary).

We agreed many posts ago that we were probably infrequently giving her negative cues. We've already committed to cutting that out; we've also given DD1&2 some 1-to-1 time with both of us and with them being back at school they seem more settled (they have barely seen their friends all summer which is an accidental travesty of conflicting holiday schedules and was certainly contributary to her mood).

And yes, we have also agreed that at times we push too hard; and perhaps you and others might acknowledge there might have been times we did not push hard enough. Yes, big surprise, occasionally parents mess up. We expected a bit of real-world humility here, because every parent screws up from time to time, and the ones who think they don't are probably the biggest fucker-uppers of the lot; and guess who posted in the majority in this thread? Well empty vessels and all that.

What utterly befuddles us is the idea that we shouldn't challenge our children to grow in ways not defined by their current state. The portrayal of trying to foster critical thinking skills in our children as "abuse" is an utter fucking disgrace, and we are disgusted by the anti-intellectuals who post such inverted snobbery here. There seems to be a rabid fear of making children do things they don't like but that are objectively good for them physically, mentally or spiritually; jeezus where would we be were we to implement that across the board? They'd wither (or more likely fatten) and die, certainly metaphorically, maybe literally.

We just don't buy it. My frustration with DD1 has been replaced by something much stronger: a reassurance that we are far better parents than many of the self-righteous bigots on this forum. With a bit of luck, they'll grow into women who can think critically for themselves because their parents didn't give up on them and just packed them off to watch X-Factor on a TV in their bedroom because that was all they were interested in.

Goodbye.

Well said Op!

Oh dear. That didn't work then. I think you have come on herenot to as k for honest opinions, but to go through the motions of seeking help in order to justify your controlling behaviour and superior attitude.