DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

being a parent is not just about sitting on your arse letting your kids get on with it and periodically telling them how clever they are and how much you love them.

Ok, I'll hold my hands up to not being a parent, but actually as far as my understanding goes this is sort of what being a parent is about? Not if they're 15 and hitting their teachers and sticking needles into their eyeballs, obviously. But if they're 10 and their greatest crime to date is not showing any particular aptitude for science, definitely.

x-posts. Well, you're obviously doing everything right, OP, and no-one is going to make you even slightly re-evaluate your approach to this "problem" (which incidentally I find odd behaviour in a software engineer). So I guess we should all leave you to it.

her 8yo sibling is more motivated, communicative, emotionally intelligent, nuanced and sharper than her. This may be how they are, but that in itself is difficult to manage. She doesn't need me to compare her to sis, she will now do it herself

And there, in your own words, is the entirety of the issue.
You daughter has learned, from you, that she is less than her sibling.
In your eyes.
And she now perceives herself to be less, in her own eyes.

And her being 'less than' makes things difficult to manage.

I actually find myself wishing that you could be an articulate wind-up merchant, because you seem unbelievably blind to the effect that your parenting style has had on your little girl.
You posted here for help, so do stop being defensive, and listen to what people are saying. Stop criticising your child for being the person she is, and trying to train her personality traits to suit your view of an achiever. Love her for exactly who she is

Finally - yes I have responded differently to you here to how I would if I bumped into you at a drinks party.

If I met someone who talked about their DD in RL how you have talked about her here.

I would try to say a few polite things, maybe mildly disagree with you; then ASAP I would try to get away. I might then later have a 5 minute rant about that "awful father" with DH or a friend.

But then would you actually say such things about your DD in RL?

Maybe she is just developing interests in things at a slower rate than your other daughter.

I would just continue to give her a wide range of experiences and try and broaden her outlook on the world. Without pressurising her to take an interest though.

Lots of children don't have particular talents or skills, they are just average children. But many still manage to live successful and happy lives.

Try not to compare your daughters though as it would be a shame to damage their relationship with each other which could happen if comparison leads to resentment and rivalry.

She sounds like a clever girl to me, she's learned the most important rule of being a kid. How To Disappoint Your Parents.

Just love her for who she is.

I feel really sorry for your 'average/below average daughter' due to your obvious negative opinion of her and the way that you seem to compare her to her 'wonderful' sister. Whether she is normal or exceptional, to you she should be the most wonderful little girl in the world. It seems very likely from the tone of your post that it is YOU that is holding her back. Nurture her and encourage her and praise her for things that she does well and stop comparing her to her sister and expecting her to be something that she is not. You need to start seeing the good in her.

what sort of parent are you if you don't try and get them to have a sense of intrigue and wonder about the world

I agree that this is perhaps a valid question, but the answer does not lie in asking trick questions- which certainly do not teach intrigue and wonder. Trickery of any kind by a parent teaches mistrust and lack of confidence.

Show her a chick emerging from an egg. Take her the Science and Nat.Hist Museums. Take her just about anywhere and show her wonders, then spend time talking about them.

Let me say it again: trickery does not teach a child to wonder. It teaches mistrust.

@insanityscratching:
"Poor little girl no wonder she isn't thriving when you are so negative and seem to enjoy setting her up for a fall. My dd is the same age she believes she is brilliant (and she is) and that she can do anything she puts her mind to because we have given her self belief. Your negativity about her efforts will be crippling her self confidence and she won't ask questions and so increase her knowledge because she senses that you are critical of her abilities. You need to look at yourself and your parenting methods with that critical eye of yours rather than focusing it on your dd."

This. Very much this. As others have said, you have asked for help and are now dismissing all suggestions. I've only just realised (at age 40) how much my parents', and in particular my father's opinions have always mattered to me, even though quite often he talks bullshit. I'm lucky: in all other respects he's a fab dad and we have a great relationship. But then he never criticised me or seemed disappointed in me. Go figure.

Does she sing, act, dance, paint? Could she join a choir or a drama group to build her confidence? Does she go to Brownies or Girl guides or any after school clubs?

I've got some advice for you Op - this will help you be a better parent.

Go out to a local corner shop
Buy the local paper
Turn to near the back
Find the page where flats for rent are advertised
Pick one
Rent it and move the hell away from your children

Given what you've posted here it's clear the best thing for your children would be less parenting from you. If you think that's harsh then re-read your posts and try and stretch your imagination to see why you've come across that way.

If this is real, back off and go on a parenting class unless you want to create an adult with no self esteem.

OP I know exactly where you are coming from, you find your DD1 difficult in just the same way my DDad did my younger less academic DSIS.

You need to step back, relax and let her be, what she will be. Offer help only when asked and only as much help as is asked for, don't turn every simple maths and science question into an hours lecture. Know when to shut up!

My dad was bad at this, DH is absolutely dreadful, imparting every scrap of knowledge you have on a subject up to degree level to do Y5 homework is not helpful.

If you live and breath science yourself it's very difficult to remember most people don't. I guess, you like me, DH, my DDad and DD1 needed, from birth, to understand how the world works. Not everyone does, some strange people need to understand other people and social interactions, not science. It's very strange.

DH and I will always find the fact that DD2 finds other people fascinating and science a bit dull very peculiar. (DD2 can do the science, maths, English etc, because she is genetically very clever, but DH will always be puzzled by her just doing things without a zeal to know more. He doesn't get she needs head space for clothes, pop music, friends gossip and all the rest of ordinary life).

My DSIS hated school, she never found anything she particularly liked and left at 16 with a handful of CSES. Only having worked for a year in a shop, did she go back to secretarial collage and discover she could type and get her head round the earliest, horrible word processors.

At last there was something, other than spelling, she did way better than me. Over the years she's worked in varying admin roles and taught herself a load of computing skills both software and taking the things apart to upgrade them. The common sense she lacked as a young teen, developed with time and the need to use it.

Dear OP your DD needs love, and space to develop into who she is destined to be, please give it her.

I think you need to find what interests her and what she is good at and use that to build on her confidence rather than putting her down.
My youngest was not at all academic and struggled at school, mainly due to confidence. However, sport was something that they excelled at and so I encouraged lots of sports. Now they still do lots of sports, have much more confidence and are doing really, really well in school.
I hope that your DD can have the same experience - it won't happen unless you are encouraging and supportive of her.

Can you explain what you mean when you say things like she lacks a growing awareness of the world around her please?

I ask this because in the very same post you touch on the fact that she befriends the shy children at school, hugs you when you are down and supports/comforts her sister when she's hurting. This would indicate to me that she is very empathetic and supportive to others and I would consider her to be emotionally very aware of the world around her.

If she is emotionally this attuned to the feelings of others then she could very well be sensing your frustration/disappointment in her no matter how much you think you are hiding these feelings from her.

Poor girl. She sounds unhappy.

OP, why not show her that everyone gets it wrong sometimes? Pick something you know you don't do very well - say, grammar or whatever it happens to be - and explain that this is a skill you struggle with. Or get her to show you how to do calligraphy, since you say she's good at that. That way, she can have the experience of feeling she's able to do something well that you can't, and might feel more confident as a result.

Your approach sounds a bit like how my parents were. They wouldn't have realized how much children want to please their parents and can freeze up at the idea of getting something wrong, though you seem aware of this. But I just want to stress how scary it is being that child.

(Excuse me posting, I don't have children but your thread came up in active convos and I clicked.)

Can I suggest, OP, that you take a quick browse in relationships, to see the horrible damage that parental favouritism can do? Your poor, poor daughter being compared so badly to her 'golden child' younger sister.

You seem determined to not take a word anyone is saying on board, you want to 'fix' your daughter, who sounds totally normal, if not a little lacking self esteem, when the real problem lies with you. I wonder how the younger sister will fare in the long term too? Being the golden child comes with a lot of pressure and expectation.

No two children are the same. Just because your youngest fulfils your idea of what a child should be like, doesn't lessen your eldest.

I really feel sorry for your elder daughter. How crap must it be to know that your father thinks your younger sister is better, negatively judges you and knows that she can never meet your expectations.

You need to sort yourself out now or the best outcome will be that your DD grows up thinking you're a twat. The worst outcome is that she will deal with herself esteem by turning it into herself with self damaging behaviours. (eating disorders, drugs etc)

For god's sake, accept her for who she is, love her, don't trick her and try to undo some of the damage you've done before she hits her teens and it all implodes.

Oh, and her good points shouldn't be an afterthought. They should be the first thoughts in your head about her.

She sounds like she's doing really well to me. I think you need to stop worrying. Have you considered that her increasing interest in nothing but food and clothes and her apparent lack of interest in hobbies and engaging with the world could be down to hormones? She's becoming a teenager. It will probably get worse before it gets better!

I suspect a large part of the issue here is that she is very different to you, and you are struggling to cope with that. You say she befriends others, comforts people when they need it etc; she is clearly empathetic and emotionally aware of others feelings. Without meaning to sound rude, your posts don't suggest that about you, nor does your profession.

To you, the world has problems and logical solutions. You (and her sister) are people who naturally want to open the box and see what makes things work, how the machine does that, how the program works. She doesn't; it doesn't mean she's inferior to you, just different. Few 10 year olds are passionate about something; most of us don't figure out our passions in life much later. My teachers at 10 told my mother I probably wouldn't amount to much; my mother took great delight telling them when I got into Oxford, and when I got my first well paid City job. Maybe she's destined to go into the caring professions; maybe she'll get to secondary and discover a love of physics, or German, or PE; who knows?

What's important now is that you stop communicating to her, even subliminally, that she's inferior to you and her sister because at present her brain doesn't work the way yours does.

And I can't believe you are complaining that 'all she wants to do at home is read books'

Btw, I find it very telling that when someone asked you if your dad ever judged you, you immediately responded by talking about being academically bright.

This is not the only criterion on which people are judged - your dad might have approved and disapproved of all sorts of qualities, or might have been entirely uninterested in your academic performance. Of course it's lovely he picked out the thing you were good at and praised you for it - but it's not healthy to focus so exclusively on academics.

You do sound extremely negative but then I guess that's because your are having to list your concerns about your dd.

I think you have ended up on a bit of a catch22 to be honest. I think that you are trying so hard to expand your dds interest that she sadly is learning more and more things that she's not good at or doesn't understand and that in turn is putting her off trying if that makes any sense. I don't think that it's a bad idea to try and broaden your dds horizons after all I do believe that dispite the flaming you are desperately trying to help your dd develope an Interest in the world around her. But I do think that in order to do that you need to help boost her confidence with the limited interests she does have.

I think that your concerns are genuine and we all make mistakes and I guess you weren't to know that in trying to help her you made things worse and I do understand why you are concerned. Maybe just try to fit in more 1:1 and have it be about fun with something she does like with no questions and no trying to gently persuade to try anything new. Just let her do what she enjoys and find the fun in that again. Maybe she's nervous about secondary school, maybe she's noticed that other kids at school are better than her at stuff and its all denting her confidence (and I'm sure you realise now that perhaps you are contributing to that too). Just back off and show her love. I'm sure you do tell her you love her and I don't think you are intentionally upsetting her but just go back to basics for now.