DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

Britax and Kezztrel - I like your perspective on the introversion. I tend to introversion too, while DD2 looks like an extrovert and DH is probably somewhere in the middle. I'll look at the video later.

Cinnabar: It's hard to answer those questions. I expect that sometimes she can tell we're disappointed/frustrated she's not engaging or understanding things as we hoped. But when we praise her for the good stuff, we try and praise specific things and make it heart-felt. She usually seems to appreciate being praised and/or hugged. We try to balance the praise we give to both DDs. But without watching a replay of video footage, it's difficult to know how close or far we are from achieving this.

I would put money on the fact that she can ALWAYS tell you're disappointed by her. Unfortunately.

Of course it is. Thank you for answering so openly.

I wish I could make you not disappointed in her though.

'I'm with DD1 saying "Barbers, smarbers Meh - whatever. I'll probably be the one coming to visit you weekly in the care home'

YY to this. My dad bred in me an interest in science, WWII fighters and bombers, history, theoretical mathematic, physics and science fiction. He also told the rudest jokes, was very very funny, and loved heavy rock music.
Your home life sounds- I hate to say this- So. BORING. If my dad was wittering on about metal pipes or grains of rice or bloody imaginary barbers- I too would be tuning out and thinking about ice cream. If you want her to be interested- try being interesting.

You both sound excessively earnest and somewhat cold.

Lighten up, give her a break. Being a parent is a gradual process of letting go, let go a bit. Let her be herself and let that be enough. Growing up with this weight of unmet expectation will likely leave her feeling that she is inadequate, that she never has been and never will be enough.

I don't think they really get it, Cinnabar.

Melpomene
I think the key to truly valuing what children do is not that you wonder how you present to them, but that you - internally - feel the same pride in the accomplishment as you do in another child getting an A* is Maths.
Its your internal emotion that children are so quick to read, not the presentation.

I have been thinking about this thread. And about just why it has riled so many of us; and how the OP and his wife just aren't seeing that they appear to dislike their daughter. They think something is wrong with her.

Because I'm (fairly) sure that if I had started a thread saying 'DD2 is driving me insane Loafing Around Pointlessly - how can I get her to engage a bit more in the holidays, and stop bursting into tears any time I suggest she do something like, you know, leave the house (accompanied) or play one of her musical instruments or read a book, because quite apart from anything else it makes me want to scream' I would get (a) some responses making helpful suggestions of things to do (b) some responses pointing out that Loafing Around Pointlessly is something that 10 year olds do (c) some responses saying 'you sound quite horrid to me' for different reasons ranging from child neglect to child bullying. But I don't think - or at least I hope - that I would sound as if I disliked her. (Even when frankly I just want to run screaming from the house...)

@Dackyduddles thanks for your post. It's been a difficult day, for sure. Not much work done, and though I expected to hear things that might not be easy, I didn't quite expect the venom.

You are right - 1:1 time is difficult to get and I feel it's an important thing here. When I give them both 1:1 time they boast to each other about what they did afterwards and one of them ends up feeling hard done by :-(

However, I think more 1:1, a bit less panic, and a bit of a lighter touch will probably make things a good deal better.

Time for tea and biccy.

However, I think more 1:1, a bit less panic, and a bit of a lighter touch will probably make things a good deal better.

Hurrah!

whenInDoubt have you ever been assessed with AS? My DF has it I am pretty sure, and I'm also pretty sure I have it, and am awaiting the results of an assessment. He and I were very similar in our love of physics, despite this I was never sure he loved me and he has a tendency to notice the mistakes first. This interacted with my fear of being wrong. It was an odd childhood.

I know he loves me. He finds it hard to show physically. Do you ever hug your daughters? At age 13, after a blazing row, I got him to sign a piece of paper promising me a hug, I was that desperate. But he either did not understand how important it was to me, or the extreme discomfort he feels while hugging was more than he knew he could bear.

I was well into my 40's before I realised this (am now over 60). I haven't spoken about it to him, I don't think he would really get it (yes, he is still going :) - he is a kind man, but does not realise how his blunt honesty has hurt people over the years)

Hi OP
Thanks for posting and hanging on in there with the replies. It's great that you've noticed an issue and are asking for help with it (lots of parents never notice anything with their kids, much less ask for help with it; mine certainly didn't).

It sounds from your previous posts as though your DD's are very different from each other, with very different interests. It also sounds as though your younger DD is very similar to you and is thriving on your natural parenting style, which is great. It sounds like your older DD isn't quite so happy at the moment. She sounds like a lovely girl with many great qualities. Maybe she is an introvert, or having an entirely normal pre-teen phase, who knows? But I don't believe its her, or her motivation that needs help here; it's your relationship. If she feels truly accepted and truly unconditionally loved by you both, she will, in time, grow into a confident person happy to try whatever new things she's interested in.

Some ideas:

• Stop comparing. She's different from you, different from her sister. She's her own unique person.
• Genuinely value her own strength areas eg her emotional intelligence. Intellectual intelligence isn't everything!

- Banish any perfectionism in yourself when dealing with people, including your daughter. (It's a great strength in a work context when you're a software engineer. It's disastrous in family relationships) - Change your parenting style. Completely! The questioning isn't working. Find and deliberately use one that works for her.

• Give one-to-one time a try, so her sister isn't around. Your DD will be a teenager soon and may not want to spend time with you then if you don't start now! Some great ideas on one-to-one time in other posts. Try just hanging out, having fun, being silly, trying something new together, whatever works for her. Her choice!

- try 'The Five Love Languages of Children'. You say you love her, but she may not be hearing it at the moment. You need to express it differently, in a way she can hear it.

Finally, if you truly believe that she is a special, wonderful, unique person who lights up your life just by being in it, who you love with all your heart, and that nothing she could ever do or be could possibly make you love her more than you do right now, then she'll know it too. That kind of unconditional love will give her the richest future you could ever imagine.

Good luck, I wish you both all the best

OP ....dealing with competition over 1:1 is very easy when you have 2 children.
One parent to one child. Doing different things.
That way they both get 1:1 with a parent.
Swap over the next day - or the next evening - or the next hour - or even for the next story
Whatever fits.

No arguments, no competition. Everyone wins.

Well according to one site:

"Your AQ Test Score is: 24
The official criteria for Aspergers Syndrome is an AQ score greater than 32.

According to statistical analysis, 26 ? 31 Is a borderline score."

Thanks @ResNullius, that sounds like a good solution. Often I ask them what they want to do, that could be problematic in this scenario though?

Not really.
You ask the child who is with you, what they would like to do (or put your chosen surprise activity into place)
Your DW does the same with the other child.

I wouldn't allow a trip to a Theme Park to be a 1:1 activity, because that would be very unfair, but most other things can be done again with the second child, the following week if they really feel that they want to do exactly the same thing with you as the sibling did.
Rather defeats the point though, because their interests obviously differ so I wouldn't expect the choices to always be the same.

Thanks for taking my suggestion seriously, wiD and checking it out. Are you a physically demonstrative family?

@TheSilverySoothsayer can you explain "physically demonstrative"?

I believe it means physically demonstrating your affection.

My partner's family is so non physically demonstrative, that he was felt really out of place when my family kept hugging him and patting him on the back during a reason get together. He's now physically affectionate with our kids but still finds it weird when other adults do it to him.

wID see para 2 of my post of 18:38:42 [hugs]

First of all, you don't sound evil and your daughters (both of them) sound fine. I reckon I'd like you all and I hope you'd like me.

Disconnected and hopefully helpful thoughts follow:

Re: grains of rice on a chessboard paradox. I remember hearing about it as a kid, from my dad, and thinking how wonderful and beautiful it was that you could start with something so small and end up with something bigger than the world. It never even occurred to me to think of it as a finicky arithmetical problem and I had honestly never thought that someone who did see it that way would find the question dull and scary.

On the other hand, I can get lost in a box room, if I bump into someone unexpectedly I'll hope they don't see me even (especially?) if I like them, and I'd lose my keys five times a day if they weren't tied to my bag. I guess what I'm trying to say is that all of us have areas where our minds dance and areas where they trudge through treacle.

Your daughter may well be expending energy on things she doesn't/shouldn't want to share with you. She might be writing One Direction fan fiction or overwrought poetry. She might think the books she's reading are HERS, something to clutch to herself and call her own. If that's the case she'll share when she's good and ready.

My God I used to hate 'what do you think the book says about X' or 'who did you identify with'questions at that age (actually, I still think the latter's a shit question, but that's by the by). I'd lived the book, breathed it in like air and the last thing I wanted to do was spatchcock it and describe the joints.

Finally, there's a New Yorker article called 'How to be Good' about the philosopher Derek Parfit, which, among other things talks about his struggle to relate to his father and sister because they were so different from him and because they seemed so unhappy. His case isn't yours - he's a genius and your daughters are clearly both bright - but it's a piece for which the word thought-provoking was made.

Op & wife, I have to say that you both sound way to intense.

Fwiw, I have two degrees and a first class masters degree, I speak five languages of which three fluently, I am a fairly confident adult, a well-paid professional and a mother of two aaaand the op's comments on this thread trigger feelings of inadequacy and anxiety in me. What I want to say is that if you sound intimidating to me then your dd1 who seem to fall below your expectations is likely to feel very pressured at home.

You came here for advice but have dealt with most posters in a razor sharp and defensive way. Sure, you seem articulate, sharp etc. but to me, it sounds like you and your wife need to kick back and bring some fun into your family life. Humour goes a very long way. Watch a movie together with a bowl of popcorn or jellybeans without analysing or testing, just enjoy being together and feeling happy.

And you know what? If you know that your daughter likes sweets and clothes at the moment, why don't you just bring her some special sweets from a nice store just for no particular reason (not as a reward) or take her to her favourite shop (for her birthday or whatever) and just get her something SHE likes, don't judge, love, nurture and TAKE IT A BIT EASY with your DCs.

I know it's difficult not to judge when you are quite academic and intellectual yourself. I understand you are frustrated and want to change the situation, good on you for making the effort. Now it's time to reread all the posts with as open a mind as possible and try and change your outlook, expectations and approach fundamentally.

Please just chill out a bit, and be grateful for BOTH your amazing daughters. If you try to just love them without judging them so much, things might just fall into place gradually. Good luck.