DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

I think we are actually moderately demonstrative. Not sure how you measure such things objectively :)

Count the hugs? Total hugs I got from DF so far in my life can't be more than about five.

I'm one of those people that hasn't got a degree...

Guess what though? I certainly know how to respect my children for being who they are. And in return, they respect me - without fear.

I've been following this thread since the beginning, and although I think you mean well, OP, you are coming across as spectaularly self-absorbed. Please read some of the advice on this thread properly. You need to, honestly.

@TheSilverySoothsayer

Hmm, 4 or 5 hugs today. Probably more when she doesn't wake up grumpy (and even then I usually offer).

:) My mind is reassured that your DD are not suffering as I did.

I think children are like flowers, we can nurture them and tend them, and then stand back and watch them blossom.

warm wishes to you all

I haven't managed to get through the whole thread, but if you are looking for parenting advice, I can recommend Calmer, Happier,Easier Parenting by Noel Janis Norton. She also runs parenting classes in London. Her approach is easier to follow and although there are no miracles it definitely helps.

wheninDoubt
I am not going to give you advice, or criticism, because I think you've had enough of both from this thread.
I want to tell you a bit about myself.

I am properly intelligent, but not very practical.
I am great at giving advice, at telling people how to do things (in such a way that they get it straight away, or know exactly what I mean when I tell them)
I am rubbish at following my own explanations/instructions because I just can't do stuff.
(an example - a friend of mine at uni had never played pool before, I played it all the time. he wanted to join in (there was a group of us), so I stood next to him, told him the exact angles to use, how to strike the cue ball and how to hold and angle the cue. As a pool player, I was rubbish. and I mean rubbish . I could hold the cue and completely miss the ball.)

I love reading, I really, really love it. I always have. As a bookseller, my job is to recommend books to people. I can recommend the right book for the right child - it's my gift, my skill. I didn't do A-level English for the following reason: I cannot for the life of me talk about books and stories and deconstruct them. I can give a synopsis about the book sufficient enough to explain to someone why it's a great book, but if they asked me for any further discussion, I would fold. I cannot normally remember any of the characters once I've finished the book, and quite often, I can't even remember what the main point of the book was. But I can know that I loved it, and that such-and-such would love it.

I always really loved logical and parallel thinking quizzes and questions. loved them. used to get lots of books, and past test papers from the High School entrance exam to do for fun in the summer holidays.
I love analytics. I love finding out how things work.
But most of my answers for any exam/course I have ever done have been one line answers.
I can remember facts and figures like I can remember by own date of birth, but I can't do further analysis. I can't break something down and explain further and further and deeper and deeper, but I can tell you every thing you need to know about it.
I've got a degree from a very good university in a science subject, and I still read my text books for fun.

But most of my time, nowadays, I spend sewing, reading, watching telly, having fun.

I work when I'm at work, and I relax and have fun when I'm at home.

the latest thing I've just done is a booklet for church of all of the hymns for the next six weeks (because we're doing a sermon series and I thought it would be a good idea to have all the hymns alongside the readings and the subject for that week). I offered to do this task on Tuesday, and have nearly finished it.
I like to make sure that I do something immediately I think about it, and do it until it's done. and then forget about it.

My dad is very intellilgent, my mum not so. Neither of them went to grammar school or university. My dad is very lazy (he has a brilliant work ethic, but when he's not at work, he doesn't work)
my mum is fabulous in all other aspects except academic. She cannot do anything academic at all. (she did a mature secretarial course at 40, and can now touch type and use a computer very well). My most enduring memories of her from childhood were teaching me how to skip (french and normal), dancing with me to 60s records, making my sister a dolls' house, making lots and lots of clothes and other things - toys etc., teaching me how to sew, cooking with us. all those things that are so very important to learning.
She didn't do the questions, she didn't do intellect, she didn't help with homework, she didn't quiz us on anything.
We were not well off, so we never went inside the "paid" part of a stately home. My dad, being typical of his day, only ever did the fun things with us.

I never spent any time with either of my parents doing academic/school stuff. ever.
And yet, I am brilliantly self-motivated and I worked my way through my degree (both in the degree work and the Burger King job).
My parents are really proud of me.
but they're equally proud of both of my sisters, the eldest was very intelligent but refused to use her intellect, but has never had a period of unemployment in her life (she did her course when she left school and worked where she wanted to) - her children are fabulous, really outgoing and friendly, and not worried about anything. the youngest sister has always been maternal and practically started her family almost straight out of school. She's a brilliant mum, but is not clever at all. She's very like my own mum, and her kids adore her.

For those who seem concerned there's not enough fun in our life -

We've just come back from 10 days in Copenhagen where they (amongst other things)

1. Went to 2 theme parks and made themselves 99% sick with all-day ride passes
2. Watched DVDs of their choice in the flat we rented
3. Got to choose the activities on most days and have a say in the others
4. Ate more ice cream than you can shake a cone at
5. Spent their hard-earned money (saved up, plus good behaviour reward) in the Tiger store, mostly (which to some extent exercised their 8 times table when converting currency) on whatever they liked
6. Boogied along to Rammstein (yes, German prog metal) in the shower with us
7. Played with local kids they made friends with
8. Helped make dinner, and made Danish Pastries.
9. They even liked the "stately home" (actually Hamlet's castle), or at least the scary dark basement tunnels which they took turns to lead us through with the torch.

10. Started to learn to juggle from me (ongoing)

This week we took them swimming at the gym, we watched family movies on our on-demand, they are going on outdoor activities and playdates with friends, and if I hadn't had my bike stolen at the gym we'd be biking around this weekend. Thus ends another week in our forced labour camp :)

wheninDoubt - "(which to some extent exercised their 8 times table when converting currency) "
please tell me it was them that instigated that and not you.
It's okay if they say "how do I know how much it is in Euros" and you tell them it's 8x or whatever, but not okay if you say "right, so, how much does that cost in Euros then, if it costs £X"

sorry, I just did what everyone's telling you not to do! I picked up on the one aspect that could prove to be negative.

Can you see how easy that is to do? Even when you don't mean to?
It's so easy to go "well, that's very well and good, but you missed an apostrophe there" and it negates every single positive thing you've said
:(

I think you sound like you've had a really good fun holiday

I'm doing an online course at present and part of it made me think of you (and me).

If she asks a question, rather than answering it with a half-hour lecture, it can be more helpful to ask questions to try to encourage her to probe out the answers herself. (Not it some fake way, as kids quickly spot that.)

But maybe like.."Why was Henry VIII so desperate for a son?" And you could respond, "Well do you remember how his father took the throne?" (War of Roses), what do you think it was like for people in England at that time? Which would you have preferred England under the Tudor's or the civil war? Why? What do you think Henry vIII would have preferred? Why?
How did they feel about women rulers then? (and so on ...)
You can introduce your own ideas, as in "Well I think I'd have preferred the Tudors, as a normal person I'd have had less chance of being killed or war disrupting the crops" or "I'd have preffered the Civil War as on the whole the nobles were too busy to annoy normal people".
And occasionally where they are really needed you can introduce facts.

@nickelbabe.

Part of the instructions from school is to get
Them to learn their times tables at
home, and here is the perfect opportunity.

There seems to be a prevailing fear here
that challenging children is some kind of abuse. Frankly I find that ridiculous. Clearly as with all these matters there can be an excessive amount of that but your knee-jerk response was not helpful ffs they enjoyed converting money it gave them a sense of independence.

that's good then :)

nothing wrong with challenging kids, I was just thinking about minimizing the damage that you're worried you've caused by being a bit too enthusiastic.

I think, if the school has said "do this at home", then the kids will know that, so that's a good thing to follow up.
It also shows them that you care about their school work :)

When, that 10 day break sounds like a hoot!

I have little to add to what has already been said, but having read this thread it seems that your DD1 is a normally happy little girl who enjoys reading, swimming, cycling (amongst other things), is more than normally kind and considerate, especially to her peers, and makes a good impression on her teachers in terms of her effort and application. She seems to be quite self-contained and not particularly reliant or needy of external validation from her parents. It seems that the only problem is that you see this as a problem - the problem is with you and your appreciation of her.

I also have an anecdote relating to your criticism or concern around your DD1 not wanting or being able to talk about the books she has read. A close relative of mine is a well-respected children's author. He was interviewed recently about one of his best known works, and the interviewer asked him a complex question about a sociological viewpoint of the book- I'm sure you would have greatly admired her Theory of the Mind. She asked my relative "so, do you agree that this theme is apparent in the book?" My relative pondered the question for a while before responding, perfectly and succinctly:

"No."

His books are wonderful, imaginative worlds that generations of children have identified with and loved, yet his own (unpublished) autobiography is one of the most emotionless pieces of writing you can find.

Just because your daughter doesn't respond as you expect doesn't mean her way is inferior. Maybe there is much you can learn from her if you set yourself the challenge to do so.

6. Boogied along to Rammstein (yes, German prog metal) in the shower with us

Please help me to get this image out of my mind by telling me you weren't all naked.

I loved reading when I was ten and was a very able reader. I didn't want to discuss my reading either. I wanted to privately hold on to the feelings I had when reading, to stay in the world of the novel for a while, to daydream about having the lifestyle of the protagonist and so on. It was a very private activity. Perhaps your DD enjoys her reading in the same way.

@noobieteacher we weren't naked all at once, if that helps? :D

@MiaowTheCat my daughter struggled with maths for a while, required additional teaching. I am utterly delighted with how she has knocked those demons for 6 and totally proud of her effort. 98% in an exam would be "pizza NOW! and don't hold on the Cherry Coke".

@mummytime we have had conversations of that sort. I don't think we're a million miles away, but it is so much easier to be destructive and for the bad stuff to stick, than constructive (by which I mean a single slip can ruin a whole bunch of good things and last a darn sight longer).

mel and I chatted - obviously - and we felt that we were definitely cueing her with negative reactions to her responses and that had to stop. We have agreed to help each other spot us doing it, as well as making the additional effort to not do it.

That sounds good progress When.

Agree with others that while a lot of what you are aiming for is important it's equally important to enjoy your relationship with your children. It's not just about input and output (i.e. teaching them things and them having 'success')

I have no way of knowing how you interact with your daughters and neither do you have to give examples etc but I hope that you 'play' with them in an everday way as well as 'doing activities'. I can think of several parents who go on theatre trips/days out/classes/activities etc but one on one with their child, they don't really interact with them, or let the DC guide the conversation, laugh at DC's jokes etc etc.

OP (I still don't get it - more detail would help - one of you in the shower the others a chorus outside? Dry shower all clothes?)

What does her mother think about your relationship with your daughter?

My son is only 5 months but I can't wait to start seeing his interests and fostering them. Maybe it's just the way you are doing it that just doesn't fit with how she likes to function.

What's her favourite subject at school? Maybe she would be more likely to start thinking laterally about something she is already interested in - eg, if it's art, then you could talk about the places/lifestyles depicted in various paintings or why oil paintings have a cracked surface, or if she loves English you could talk about origins of language/words, or what was going on in the lives of women that meant female authors often used male names to get published. If she loves fashion you could talk about why certain fashions got started or how science is creating fabrics with built-in u.v and prints that change colour if you've been in the sun too long.
I hated science, geography and history at school because it was never brought alive or felt relevant but now I am fascinated because I find out about things in a way that I love based on my particular interests and can't wait to teach my son about the world, but in a way that works for him, not a way that I think is 'best' or the most factual.

My Dad used trick questions but against a background of care and lightheartedness that got us to work it out and feel good that we realised why/how it was a trick - nothing wrong with making children think beyond the obvious but again it needs to be in context and if you are having trouble engaging with her at the moment then I'd avoid it.
Just a quick point about the cooking - maybe she is going off it because you don't do it with her anymore? Maybe she cherished that time with you? It would be great if you could start it again with her - the relaxing atmosphere with her Dad and sense of achievement in making something could be exactly what she needs.