DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

If the OP had meant that his DD was like the curate's egg, he would probably have written

the problem at hand: curate's egg.

not

the problem at hand. Curate's egg?

He was trying to explain his posting style, not describe his daughter.

I'm fascinated by your name, Melpomene. Originally the Muse of Song/Dance, latterly the Muse of Tragedy.

Kezztrel - do you not think that it's ambiguous at the very best?

Yes, I do think it's ambiguous Cinnabar, but that's how I read it.

The OP is rather keen to sound highly intelligent, isn't he?

Hi WhenInDoubt,

I'm not here to judge whether your attitude towards your daughter is appropriate or not, and I'm quite shocked by some of the responses here.

I was wondering if you have considered "love bombing"? You can read about it in this Guardian article. I think you and your daughter (your wife might like to try it, too) are perfect candidates!

Good luck!

That's exactly the point! She won't tell us what her terms are

:o she's 10. I doubt she is likely to be able to verbalise her terms of engagement wtih parents that seem to constantly put her on the back foot.

Melpomene you hit the nail on the head when you described your daughter as an introvert.

I'm an introvert too, there's nothing wrong with being one, except that extroverts can never figure us out.

It means we rationalise the world around us by withdrawing into ourselves and thinking things through in our head. We need to be alone to recharge our batteries. We can't answer questions out loud, we have to think the answers through and write them down.

Extroverts make sense of the world by discussing it with others. They recharge their batteries by being with other people. Introverts can find extroverts quite draining if they spend too much time with them and it can make introverts withdraw into themselves in an attempt to shield themselves a little.

Does this sum up your family dynamic? If so, please just let your daughter be.

She is about to hit puberty and you could genuinely lose her forever if she shuts down completely. She might seek approval from father figure types later on in life which could lead to some dodgy relationships. I'm speaking from experience here. I was scared of my Dad, he wasn't abusive, just made me feel terrified of ever putting a foot wrong just because of the way he was.

If the introvert - extrovert thing hits a nerve, watch this You Tube vid as it pretty much sums up the OP www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=introvert%20extrovert%20youtube&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJtPcsFkrbSU&ei=VG8fUoLMFcmctAbz6oHwAw&usg=AFQjCNG0LqVq6ZYLw0qnumQUo8IWlXURcQ&sig2=UjJVoPsw4Hz5DbUVqQW6PQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.Yms

Kezztrel

I don't think you're one bit for real but on the tiniest off chance that you might be leave your poor daughter alone and let her be the person she's meant to be. Gentle encouragement yes; badgering her and asking her to perform tricks on demand no. I wouldn't discuss books with someone who was just waiting to shoot me down or make me feel like my answer wasn't clever enough. In fact, she's intelligent enough to read the situation and know how it's going to end for her (your disappointment in her again) so she's got a higher EQ than you for sure.

Kezztrel - fair comment.

Is that ambigous enough too?

Ok without debating the rights and wrongs, I will simy recount my experience. Take from it what you choose.

I have 3 children. 15,14 and 10.

Ds1 and dd and "gifted" I hate that term, I never ever use it, but in this case, sadly, it is relevant.
They both passed the 11 plus. They are predicted A grades across the board. Irrespective of that they are wonderful, kind, caring people. For the most part.

My ds2 is not "gifted" he is average intelligence. He is amazingly creative, music, dance, art, stories, drama. Those are the things he adores and excels at.

Ds1 at 10 would have loved to try and work out riddles, to be asked questions about science and maths and the world in general. So that's what we did.

Ds2 would not enjoy it at all

So we do not do that.

We encourage, praise and enjoy each child's achievements. We enjoy whichever activity puts a smile on their faces.
We do not expect either child to somehow transform into our idea of "best" because they are all individual.

So we talk to them, do things with them that they enjoy.

My relationship with super creative, artistic musical ds2 is no different to my relationship with super bright, super inquisitive ds1.

They are different children. If DS2 cannot explain the theme of a book to me, it's irelevant.
He can do so many other wonderful things.

The 'opening doors' thing sounds really contrived (and a bit precious). It may also be harder to do from this starting point.

What it starts with is really engaging with the things that she likes to do, and valuing them for themselves. You say that she likes to cook. Have you got out all your recipe books, talked about the things that you love to cook, told her stories about the favourite things elder relatives used to cook you, may be got in touch with those relatives and got one or two recipes to try? Or just given her a child's recipe book and free rein in the kitchen? Or planned a special meal for the 4 of you, with her as 'Chief Cook' and you just as 'onion chopper'? Or asked her to make a special pudding for a guest 'because she's such a great cook'? Or asked her to teach you how to make something she has tried out but you haven't made yourself? Or made it a holiday project to invent a new type of biscuit (complete tolerance of wasted ingredients while searching for the elusive recipe required, of course)? Watch cookery shows together (not leaving her stuck in front of it), find out when the Good Food show is on, laugh together at the failures on Great British bake-Off and tried your own version of the challenge? Go to a good restaurant and talk about the food?

But don't see that as an exhaustive list to be ticked off - do a little bit, listen and watch to see whether she might want to do more.

Equally cycling - is there a traffic-free path near you? Maybe a longer distance Sustrans route? Can you divide it into manageable chunks and (taking her keen-ness as a lead) complete the route together over a number of weeks / months? Or find a new family-friendly route and have fun on it together? Take the bikes on your next family holiday and explore new routes?

And might she enjoy trying out making you up rather than as a game on the computer? Face painting sets are cheap...

Another aspect of opening doors is to do things together that you don't know whether either of you will be interested in (that's how DD got into dance). A 'well, there's this table tennis club in the church hall down the road, there's a free session on Friday. i can't play but I wonder whether it's fun, shall we go?' sort of thing. DS (12) has had a lifetime of this and now takes him off to new things by himself ('there was a poster up about a new club at school, Mum. Thought I'd go along. I tried it and it's not really my thing / I tried it and it was more interesting than I thought, i'll go again')

Totally agree with this britax: We can't answer questions out loud, we have to think the answers through and write them down. If OP's DD is particularly introverted (or just introverted at the moment because she's ONLY 10 and a pre-teen) she is not going to react well to questioning and interrogation.

I'm an introvert. I read constantly and have many many interests and hobbies. But if someone asks me in a very direct way what I've just read, what music I like, what I know about a certain period of history, my mind goes blank, I literally become dumb! It makes me feel stupid, even though I know I'm not, and this feeling of stupidity is massively exacerbated by people who have approached me in the wrong way. If this is what's happening with the OP's daughter I feel very sorry for her.

I forgot add to the end of my last post: I can see how being faced with dumb silence or a grumpy 'don't know' could be frustrating for her parents. I know it used to piss my dad off no end: according to him all I ever said was 'don't know'. I knew bloody well, I just couldn't articulate it. I seem to have grown up just fine though!

OP, you sound like a very angry and demanding person. You also seem very judgemental about what is/is not a worthy pursuit for your daughters.

Your DD is clamming up because she is scared of you and can feel the anger, disappointment and judgement radiating off you whenever she fails one of your 'tests'. She must feel like she is constantly being ambushed with tests and being set up to fail. She will have internalised your approval of her sister and your disapproval of her and must have absolutely rock bottom self-esteem in the home. School is probably an escape for her.

I find it really sad that when you know that your DD is scared of you, your OP is not about this and how you can change yourself, but about how you can continue trying to mould your daughter into your idealised version of what a child should be. Which has worked so well so far, hasn't it?

Btw, my post sounds every bit as precious as I feared it would. It's very hard to spell out what is essentially an attitude of mind.

Cinnabar: "Yes, I can see indeed that you are enabling them. What I can't see is that you're encouraging them, or valuing them for the achievements that they are. "

As I said above, we praise her swimming and cycling and certainly value those skills and like to see her having fun with those as well as keeping fit. I tell other people (in front of her) about how well she is doing at those. We praise her cooking and enjoy the results with relish. I'm not going to actively encourage her to watch Spongebob or play virtual leg-waxing on the computer or praise a high score in virtual leg-waxing as an achievement, though I acknowledge she needs some downtime and it's okay to do those things sometimes. (BTW I am not being facetious; virtual leg-waxing is an actual online game.)

We value that she is (generally) conscientious and responsible.

I really praised and valued her performance in the school play (just a couple of lines), because it was a big achievement for her to put herself forward and play the part despite being nervous. She's never going to be an actor but it was stretching her boundaries in a good way. I know what it's like to have to talk in public despite being nervous and I've told her I get nervous too in that sort of situation.

Maybe we need to back off on encouraging her on the things she's not enthusiastic about, but I can't see how we could do much more to encourage the things she is enthusiastic about.

(No very deep meaning to my posting name BTW - I chose it yonks ago, as much because I liked the sound of the name as anything else.)

Thanks @TheThirdHare, will check that link out at home tonight.

Virtual leg-waxing - who knew?

Fair enough, Melpomene, you do sound supportive and enthusiastic. I agree that you need to back off pushing the stuff she doesn't particularly relish.

Now, another question or two (sorry).

Does your non-verbal communication match the explicit verbal communication (e.g. flickering disappointment over your?
Does your implicit verbal communication match the explicit verbal communication (e.g. more overt praise of DD2)?
I'm trying to get to whether your DD1 might feel it's lip service rather that heart-felt, particularly on your DH's part.

Well, maybe the premise of the OP is flawed then, Melpomene. As others have said, she sounds like a typical 10 year old girl. She has hobbies, silly games and interests, she reads a lot, she is well-behaved and her teachers like her. What else would your definition of "thriving" include? (We have established beyond doubt, I hope, that a propensity to do lateral thinking puzzles is not essential to "thriving".) "Thriving" is not synonymous with "developing a specialism". Certainly not at ten.

And I like your name, BTW!

Love bombing is a good idea, kind of what i suggested upthread but with a silly name.

You do this to reconnect your bond and it does seem as thoughyour bond is under a lot of strain.But above all, button your lip and count to ten. And give her time and space. This could seriously change your life and hers, dramatically.

Try an autism quiz, it may be interesting.

Ok......
I've read the lot. Op ill start with apologising. Possibly your desperation has coloured your writing style significantly. Reading more i think you are being genuine rather than my knee jerk reaction of otherwise. I'm sorry for my words. Thank you for taking the time for a detailed response personally.

School seem pleased with her, in a good solid type of way. At this age if they had any concerns they would be engaging you and be highlighting them in her reports. She sounds a naturally generally competent individual. She mightn't set the world alight in brilliant discourse but from what you and your wife say I'm encouraged that she's probably average for her age. That's a good thing btw. Some stories here are heart rending if not down right terrifying. Have you discussed your concerns or fears with her teacher? This would be the best place to start.

My only other thought is that possibly your wife and you do need to spend more 1:1 time than 2:1. That's easier said than done. I'm guilty myself of wishing us to be together all weekend as I'm so darn happy to see my dh but I'm already seeing my eldest could be needing daddy time. Quite how ill juggle it as they both grow is anyone's guess. I think you need to enjoy spending time together. Something simple eg a park. Don't take silence as a negative. Some of the best moments are merely existing together enjoying watching the world go by. Back off a bit with the tricks and stuff. Let her come to you? She suggested your wife read a book she liked for example. Next time maybe try just saying I read it, it was good wasn't it? And leave it there. She might have a think about that and then talk later? Maybe she thinks more than you realise. Still waters etc....

Ill keep reading. It's an interesting thread even if you did unfortunately kicked the vipers nest a bit! Be thankful you didn't post in aibu..... ;)

^Barbers shave the men who don't shave in the town. Do barbers shave themselves?
Or another:
If you go back in time to kill your grandfather, how can you be alive to do it? (note: they loved the Back to the Future movies).
It's a bit of philosophical fun. Like an optical illusion but with words. Wow, how esteem-destroying it must be to see it as a duck and a rabbit?^

Sorry, I have a good degree from an excellent university; a well paid job, an IQ level in the top 10% of the country and almost 40 yrs on this earth. I don't get it, I never get this sort of thing and I totally switch off as soon as anything like this is asked of me. I don't even get the answers which someone has posted in this thread. despairs

If DD2 loves this sort of stuff, wicked - you two are probably quite alike and it's not unusual to be closer to children you have a lot in common with. Different entirely to preferential treatment which I am not suggesting you give. I'm with DD1 saying "Barbers, smarbers Meh - whatever. I'll probably be the one coming to visit you weekly in the care home". Try not to develop into the sort of parent who takes this for granted and lives for the random visits of the golden child.

If I were you, I'd take a giant chill pill, hide this thread and relax a bit. Ask yourself if, when both your DC's school reports come back next whether or not you could bear to put them in the fire without reading them and trust that they would come to you if they need any help. It's the trust and relationship part you need to work on, not your daughters ability.