DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

But my job is to open doors for her, and to let her peek in

I believe that this is what OP and OP's DW think they are doing.

But they're not. They're only opening the doors they think she should peek through, not the ones she wants to peek through.

I think the general drift was towards the view that if I was disappointed in my daughter's attitude then that would be communicated and internalized

BINGO!!!
...and not internalised in a positive way, because that is never the result.
( clarifying that by attitude, you mean the issues you outlined in the OP as being difficult for you to deal with )
It is internalised as low self esteem.
Constant repetition will eventually lead to fear of even trying.
Punishment for failing to try leads straight back to internalising

Think of it as a flow chart.
Add in whichever other boxes and arrows you like, but this central core remains the constant in the system.

Can you now see why (whether posts were flamey or otherwise) people have been trying to hold up this mirror for you.
Because that short flow chart is the essence on which everything else is supported.

Your second child is flowering because she constantly internalises positive input.
Your slightest, briefest flash of disappointment in the eyes will be internalised by DD1 as negative input. Particularly as she has become highly sensitised to it.

The ONLY way to undo this cycle is to re-write your input into the process.
Because the flow chart starts with that.
The child can't internalise input which hasn't happened.

Please tell me this now makes some sense to you?

(Cross posts, but I think CinnabarRed means something similar to me when she says 'Roots and Wings'. My job is to ensure DD has firm roots - in a loving family, through a set of shared values and a strong sense of self-worth. It is also to ensure that she is given the opportunity to find out where her skills lie and to use them to the full, and that she understands that her particular abilities are valued and where they might be used.)

That's the problem in your home OP. Not enough Woo.
I just asked my kids if they were scared of me. After they'd finished laughing they said that whilst I can be scary (too bloody right - who dumped a suitcase full of washing in front of the machine?....) they aren't scared of me. I would be in despair if they were.

Roots and wings - my friend's son went to uni last year and I sent her a text on the day he left reminding her she'd done a good job and he would always know the way home. That's what roots and wings means - that we raise confident children who go out in to the world and make their own life their way but who also know that the door to their home is always open and nothing they do could break the connection with us. We are our childrens roots. They get the stuff they need from us and should always feel they can draw on us but they go off and find their own way. Like I say - a bit more Woo wouldn't hurt.

"But they're not. They're only opening the doors they think she should peek through, not the ones she wants to peek through."

Apologies, yes of course. I am so used to my DD wanting to peek through an astounding range of doors (almost all, tbh, not ones that would have interested me at her age, or indeed at any point) that I hadn't bothered to spell that out....

@teacherwith2kids thanks. I can only really give her what I have, by definition. She is free to reject that, of course. But kids change, and interests suddenly spark. They were quite taken when I was reading Richard Dawkins' beautifully illustrated "Magic of Reality" to them as a bedtime 'story'. I wouldn't shut the science door just because she doesn't want to go through now.

Cracking post, Res. Exactly it.

Picture your daughter in years to come, when you are dead and gone and no longer able to "guide" her. If you could look down on her then, what would make you happy? That she has fulfilled academic potential and allthe desires YOU have for her, or that she has become a confident, fulfilled individual capable of forming meaningful relationships, with a network of good, real friends and a job and hobbies which she genuinely enjoys? She is her own person and above all else she deserves to BE her own person, especially at home where she should feel safety and solace.

I think a parent's job is to help a child find their own path, not to find it for them. Your job is to love her, and show her that you love her, regardless.

I do believe you are genuine and are acting in what you believe are your daughter's best interests. Just make sure they are HER best interests, not yours.

When, underneath the flaming, you've been given some great advice here on how to tweak things to help your family. Do you agree? Can you see yourself approaching DD1 differently? Or are we all a shower of bastards, totally unreasonable and a tad on the shrill side and you are, of course, a perfect parent and the problem lies with your ten year old daughter?

@ResNullius what you described makes sense. Is this not why I posted?

@purrpurr says "we abused you, but we were justified and doing you a favour".

Piss. Off.

Oh dear.

@ResNullius what you described [The ONLY way to undo this cycle is to re-write your input into the process] makes sense. Is this not why I posted?

So - are you saying you want help in how you relate to your DD1?

Because, truly, that has not come through in a single one of your posts.

@midgeymum2 I would be happy, looking down from my cloud, if she was happy, had food in the cupboard and some money in her pocket for ice cream.

whenIndoubt,

No. That's wrong. You really can give her SO much more than you have - because the two of you can discover it together.

I cannot emphasise enough how enormous my ignorance of dance was. It was simply not something that ever, ever entered my life. I knew nothing about it. I knew no-one who did it. I hadn't even read a book about it (unless you count 'Ballet Shoes').

But for DD, it is central to her life. I didn't give it to her because I 'had it already'. We found it together.

You could say 'it's all right for you, your DD knows what is central to her life'. However, that didn't arise 'by accident', it arose because I was really listening to her and observing her (and frantically researching in the background to work out how to take the next step with her), and letting her talk about and do what SHE wanted to talk about and do.

How can your DD find out - and feel valued for - what she is good at if you are constantly telling her about the things that she SHOULD be interested in and good at (even if it is through tacit comparison with her sister)?

I can't say whether she's scared of me, or simply scared of the consequences of transgressing the boundaries we've set and knows I will enforce them. Only she knows. She fears my disapproval, probably.

I think you should be worried if you scare your child. Fearing the consequences of her behaviour is the same as fearing you. You have set up these boundaries, you can change them too. I suggest you make new rules and involve her (not lil sis) in the decision making process.

You need to get perspective on what is fair, from her experience.

Also, you need to remember that she goes to school for a reason, and that you are not a teacher. She doesn't need you to explain physics, although it's nice of you to explain, it's not a necessity as they will teach her all of this when she is ready, at school.

WTAF was your last post to purrpurr about? What on earth do you think she said that justified that?

Christ, I'm scared of you. God knows how your 10yo daughter feels.

Read her Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising instead, dammit. My 10 year old has just finished the whole series. In between Loafing Around Pointlessly and Irritatingly a lot.

Oh and yes, the science that my lovely 12 year old is being taught inspires and makes her zing at secondary. She has an excellent, lovely teacher who has unlocked her capacity for enjoying and working with the scientific world in a way that hasn't happened before. Same with her maths, which was never her strong point before. Teachers are pretty good at secondary, you know.

@CinnabarRed: first of all I described the problem, as tersely as I dared. Pretty much the first post accused me of being a War Criminal. Instead of developing a dialogue, asshats persisted in abusing me, and I defended myself, politely at first. Constructive posts were lost in a snow-storm of flame (sic).

Perhaps my terminal line "Any advice would be appreciated" was wrong (I guess abuse counts as a kind of advice). I think it's implicit that my part in the relationship was of relevance, and frankly, your attempt to state otherwise (presumably as some legitimisation of the abuse) is a bit disingenuous, really.

And she'll learn about Richard Dawkins at school too. You are not 'shutting the science door' by not reading it to her. Home is for happiness and fun, not just learning.

Seconding what MI says (not least because that's a brilliant series).

I can tell from your posts you're not someone who was great at English at school. There's no reason you should be. But you seem almost menaced by the prospect that your DD is keenest on books, and you're pushing her back to science (or mel is looking to use literature as a window onto social issues rather than as, well, literature). It's a bit mean.