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DD does not seem to be thriving

324 replies

whenInDoubt · 29/08/2013 09:54

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

OP posts:
PoppyAmex · 29/08/2013 14:23

And we are supposed to pat him on the back and say "it's ok we've been there too". Or alternatively leave the thread. Hmm

Because an adult whining about his 10 year old not being as able to engage him as well as his 8 year old isn't disturbing.

LRDPomogiMnyeSRabotoi · 29/08/2013 14:24

OP, I might be a bit like your DD. You're a software engineer - she likes books. You're into science and your 'trick questions', she likes calligraphy You're obviously very different people.

To be frank, if you asked me the 'trick question' about barbers shaving, I wouldn't think it was funny (or philosophical, I don't even really know what that means in this context). I'd just be puzzled. As an adult, I know you're probably meant to say 'ah, the barber must be outside town, therefore, he is a man who is outside town, therefore he shaves himself'.

But as a child, I would probably have found it an odd question and a bit upsetting, because I wouldn't have got the 'point'.

It's similar to the way some people enjoy cryptic crosswords and others just don't.

I think maybe you could afford to back off with the things you think your DD should do to compete for your attention - you're the adult here. You try to make more efforts to show you're interested in what she likes. I know it was just one suggestion, but I notice my suggestion you demonstrate to your DD that you are bad at certain academic skills has gone unanswered - please consider it. It could help her feel a lot less nervous of getting everything 'wrong' in front of you.

BOF · 29/08/2013 14:26

Gibbered? Hardly. What a waste of time engaging with this thread is.

LRDPomogiMnyeSRabotoi · 29/08/2013 14:26

That post to artex comes across as incredibly rude, btw, OP. Calling someone 'delusional' when they are taking time to help you is not showing yourself in a great light.

CinnabarRed · 29/08/2013 14:26

Oh, but this is soooo going to get me a flaming, but....

OP, have you ever been tested for ASD?

ArtexMonkey · 29/08/2013 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whenInDoubt · 29/08/2013 14:29

@BOF thought they'd be really in with their cool peers if they wrote

Is the OP writing The Mumsnet Guide To Fucking Your Kids Right Up ?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Asking for help on a parenting forum because I have become concerned my daughter is becoming withdrawn. I hope your thinly-disguised passive-aggressive comment made you feel better about yourself, but it didn't exactly make me think you were anything worthy of listening to.

OP posts:
whenInDoubt · 29/08/2013 14:31

@CinnabarRed asked

OP, have you ever been tested for ASD?

Atrial Septal Defect? No, my heart has been fine, thanks.

OP posts:
TalkativeJim · 29/08/2013 14:33

'I am disappointed that I (and my wife who is considerably more relaxed then me) find it frustratingly difficult to find meaningful ways to interact with her.'

This sounds very switched-on and parenty and caring, but it actually translates as 'She isn't what I want her to be.'

'People get cross. People show disappointment. And you know what? That's perfectly normal.'

No, it isn't when it's a case of trying to be a good parent! You don't show the disappointment! - you try your hardest not to, you praise them for the small things, you get excited at stuff you as an adult find pointless, you take them as they are, you make sure they learn that it's fine to be them. You don't treat their tiny, developing consciousness as if it belongs to a mini-adult. You don't try and program, you try and nurture.

You seem to be going about this all wrong. You have now had LOADS of detailed posts, from parents who feel that to a greater or lesser extent that they are managing to avoid some of the problems you are facing, telling you what they think you might be doing wrong and how to change tack.

You will not listen to a single one of them because you are under a massive misapprehension. It is this: you think that because you are intelligent, an achiever, and a professional, and because you are interested in your daughter and how you parent her, it follows that you are a good parent.

That is not true. Parenting isn't simply another logic problem. Intellectual, interesting, switched on people can be terrible parents.

I would stand back and start listening to the people on this thread.

ResNullius · 29/08/2013 14:33

Repeats:
I have a question of my own.
Are you, at any point, open to considering the fact that your daughters feelings and emotions are rooted in the way in which she is viewed by you?

CinnabarRed · 29/08/2013 14:34

No. Try the other commonly-used longer form of ASD.

whenInDoubt · 29/08/2013 14:34

@clarachu yes, @noobieteacher's posts have been an oasis in this miry thread. Had that been that only post I would have felt a bit better about asking. Now I feel ... angry because of the abuse I've fielded. Gotta love the internets.

OP posts:
RapunzelsHairBrush · 29/08/2013 14:34

Think I'm going to hide the thread now too. I really don't see how ignoring reasonable, sensible suggestions & comments about how or why things might appear to be 'wrong' to engage in trading insults, however 'intellectual' they may be, is helping your daughter & your relationship with her.

She might not be the problem here, your expectations might be. Consider that...

whenInDoubt · 29/08/2013 14:36

@CinnabarRed no, I've never been tested. It would be genuinely interesting to me.

OP posts:
TalkativeJim · 29/08/2013 14:37

...and, and - if the aggression in your posts here is anything to go by, you probably also aren't realising how much you scare your daughter as well as show your 'natural' disappointment in her.

Your anger is palpable, and out of all proportion to what should be the discursive nature of this thread. I find it REALLY hard to imagine that that is completely at odds with your RL persona:

OP, have you ever been tested for ASD?

Atrial Septal Defect? No, my heart has been fine, thanks.

How silly you sound.

Doctorbrownbear · 29/08/2013 14:39

"Younger sister knows how to get my attention and engage me. She is canny and has a sophisticated Theory of Mind that her elder sibling either does not, or does not exploit. They battle for my attention, and I struggle to keep the playing field level."

You sound very much like an egotist. This is less about your daughter and more about YOU. Because she does not engage you in the way you would like and probably is not so desperate for your attention or indeed interested in you, that she is willing to stroke your ego in the same way as her younger sister. I think you sound like a like what they call round here, a bit of a nob!

Melpomene · 29/08/2013 14:39

Wife of OP here.

(This post will probably get buried and I?m supposed to be working so haven?t had time to read every post.)

Thanks to the several posters who have offered some good advice, but others have been unduly harsh. The flaming is completely unhelpful and makes it hard not to get distracted from the good advice. The initial post was negative because it was describing what seems to be a problem, so obviously it wasn?t going to include a full description of everything that goes on in our family?s life, or list all the good things. There is plenty of positivity and affection in DH and DD1?s relationship and he and I both set up fun things for her and enjoy plenty of cuddly ?downtime?. It was an anonymous forum post asking for advice about a particular issue, and obviously it?s completely different from anything that DH would say to DD1's face or to people we know IRL.

Of course we love her and are proud of her. We do tell her that we are proud of her ? and also that she should be proud of herself. For example, we praised her especially for her performance in her school show (She is naturally introverted and performing doesn?t come naturally to her so she had to push herself through nerves/embarrassment, even though it was a very small part.) We praise her for her swimming, her physical strength, her cooking, her stories, her drawings, for the times when she gets on well with her sister, for all sorts of everyday little things.

We do love her and know that we need to accept who she is ? but at the same time we want to encourage her to reach her full potential. Don?t most parents want to share their interests and teach their children about the world? Some posters have implied that it is harsh or abusive to ask children questions with a view to expanding their knowledge and encouraging them to notice and remember things. Is it wrong to ask a toddler what colour a bus is? Is it wrong to ask a 10yo, with a view to starting a conversation, ?Do you know why dinosaurs became extinct?? or ?Do you know who David Cameron is?? Is it wrong to ask, when visiting another country, what the child has noticed that is different from their home country? I suppose there is a scale ? and perhaps DH and/or I fall a bit far on the ?testing? side at times or find it hard to hide disappointment if she doesn?t understand something that seems simple to us or has forgotten a basic fact that was covered in a TV programme we?ve just watched. We?re only human. We do not accept that it is wrong or abusive to try to draw children out or encourage their curiosity about the world, but maybe we can modify the way we do it to be more in tune with DD1.

The ?trick question? aspect is not intended to belittle her, but to inspire surprise/wonder about the world. An example of a trick question is the puzzle about what would happen if you put a grain of rice on the first square of a chess board, two grains on the second square, four grains on the third square, and so on ? how much rice would you end up with in total? (The answer is amazingly large and obviously we weren?t expecting her to get a correct answer or belittling her in any way; it?s just that discussion and dialogue about something counter intuitive is usually more interesting than a lecture or just being told the answer.)
DD2 loves these type of trick questions and lateral thinking puzzles.

The problem isn?t as simple as DD1 being scared of being ?tested? ? it?s often hard to engage her in conversation generally, even about things she likes. For example, she enjoyed a particular book and suggested that I read it. I read it, enjoyed it too and was really looking forward to discussing it with her as it involved a lot of social issues, but then she gave monosyllabic/non committal responses to all my attempts to ask her open questions about her feelings/opinions about the book and the characters. Or if she enjoys a film or an outing we might ask her what her favourite part was, and she?ll simply reply ?all of it?. Things seem to wash over her ? we wonder if she is even taking the words in when she reads.

She rarely asks questions about the world or her surroundings or expresses opinions about the world ? we wish she would ask more questions. Even if she doesn?t set the world on fire academically, it?s important for her to develop ability to engage in conversations and find things she can be enthusiastic about, surely?

I agree with the posters who said that part of the disengagement could be linked to hormones, as she is into puberty.

We already do some of the things suggested in the helpful posts here ? eg having her make & write cards for the family. Recently I took her swimming and pointed out to her that she can swim front crawl better than I can.

Of course we accept that we need to love her for who she is. This morning she got up and came downstairs in a whiny stroppy grump and I immediately gave her a big hug, just because she looked like she needed it. She is far from cowed into oppression and is quite capable of good naturedly teasing DH or talking back to us when she wants to. As DH said at the end of the first post in this thread, we want to encourage her to gain enthusiasm and be the best she can be.

whenInDoubt · 29/08/2013 14:40

@TalkativeJim I wonder why you seem to think I'm not listening to the constructive stuff?

Call me weak, but having been shotgun-sprayed with some of the most deeply ignorant hurtful insults known to man, one tends to be a bit defensive. And the squeaky wheels are getting the grease, sadly.

OP posts:
PoppyAmex · 29/08/2013 14:43

Gosh.

I never fully understood until now, but this is how adults hear "but we took you to stately homes"

CinnabarRed · 29/08/2013 14:43

You could take one of the reputable online tests. Clearly not definitive, but potentially interesting.

I am disappointed that I (and my wife who is considerably more relaxed then me) find it frustratingly difficult to find meaningful ways to interact with her

Then try harder. Interact on her terms, not yours.

Look, see if this metaphor helps. The holidays that DH and I take now we have the DSs are radically different to the ones we took as just a couple. We would not have chosen to go to Butlins last weekend if we didn't have children. But we had a wonderful time, all of us, because our boys were in child-heaven. Your daughter is like Butlins - wonderful on her own terms, in her own way.

LRDPomogiMnyeSRabotoi · 29/08/2013 14:44

mel, I don't know about other people but I'm responding to this the way I am because it strikes a chord.

Like this bit: 'The ?trick question? aspect is not intended to belittle her, but to inspire surprise/wonder about the world. An example of a trick question is the puzzle about what would happen if you put a grain of rice on the first square of a chess board, two grains on the second square, four grains on the third square, and so on ? how much rice would you end up with in total? (The answer is amazingly large and obviously we weren?t expecting her to get a correct answer or belittling her in any way; it?s just that discussion and dialogue about something counter intuitive is usually more interesting than a lecture or just being told the answer.)'

Ok, sure, it's not intended to belittle her. But from your and your DH's descriptions, it sounds as if it's not working, and yet you don't give up.

The emperor of China problem isn't any kind of 'trick' - it's just extremely painstaking arithmetic, where one tiny slip halfway through messes up your whole answer. Some people, who like methodical work, would not mind that. Others would find it very demotivating, because you can understand the principle and still make an error.

I wonder if maybe she just sees things differently from you two - what do her teachers reckon to the way she discusses books, btw? I mean, maybe you were struck by the social issues but she loved the language or the imagery - it's hard for a ten year old to have the tools to explain that easily, I think. Obviously she likes something or she wouldn't be reading so much.

CinnabarRed · 29/08/2013 14:46

DD2 loves these type of trick questions and lateral thinking puzzles.

I don't. I find them frustrating and, ultimately a little upsetting.

It seems your DD1 does too.

tak1ngchances · 29/08/2013 14:47

This is totally stately homes stuff.

Imagine being inside your daughter's head. She is never good enough for you, she is not the daughter you wanted

How the hell do you think that feels????? It's a pretty good way to develop someone with rock-bottom self esteem, social anxiety and a host of related issues. Your daughter is an individual, she will never conform to your idea of how a daughter "should be". She is herself, and you as parents need to accept that and love her UNCONDITIONALLY.
PLEASE listen to the people on here. They are giving you good & honest advice.

midgeymum2 · 29/08/2013 14:47

I think worrying that your daughter is"stagnating" and expecting her to have "found herself" at 10 years old is unreasonable. I think you will both end up dissapointed by these expectations.

What do you say to her when she compares herself to her sister? I think that if I have this problem with one of my dcs (much younger) I would try and take a step back, cut her some slack and give her a chance to enjoy her interests, even if they did seem limited to me. Try and celebrate her for herself - show her that you are confident that she is a capable person who will get where she needs/wants to be in good time. She might then adopt this attitude and blossom.

Also, if you don't know what the teacher means by her comments about your daughter - ask her!

ResNullius · 29/08/2013 14:48

Red the onlines are good, but can be misleading when deeply ingrained coping tactics return 50/50 results.