DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

it?s often hard to engage her in conversation generally, even about things she likes. For example, she enjoyed a particular book and suggested that I read it. I read it, enjoyed it too and was really looking forward to discussing it with her as it involved a lot of social issues, but then she gave monosyllabic/non committal responses to all my attempts to ask her open questions about her feelings/opinions about the book and the characters

I'm only guessing, but I suspect she felt tested by you even though that wasn't your intent. Forgive me, but you sound quite intense in your interactions with her.

In all seriousness, have you tried talking to her while driving her somewhere in the car or doing a chore, so you're not making eye contact or formalising the conversation? She may find it far easier.

OP - my suggest is rather than trying to educate her, you step back, say between now and Christmas - try not to ask her questions when you are together. Wait to see if she asks you stuff. If she hates the questions, then she'll not enjoy time with you worrying about if you are going to ask her stuff that she'll get wrong and feel stupid. Do'nt make your DD feel stupid. It's a Daddy's job to make his daughter feel like the most fabulous person in the world!

I would start small, try to spend time with your DDs separately, your DD1 especially. If she's interested in bike riding, then rather than take her for days out doing stuff you find interesting, get on your bike with her, go to woods and ride some trails - accept she's not going to be the best, and you might not too, but you'll have fun. Just have fun. (and for gods sake don't make it a race or go too fast so she can't keep up!)

If she shows any interest in entering a drawing competition again, say "that's great darling" don't try to teach her it's important to win, because at this stage, it's not. It's important to take part, taking part and being last is better than not taking part at all.

You need to realise she response to things differently - you would respond to "you need to put lots of effort in to win" by putting lots of effort in, it would be a spur to you , but your DD hears "you need to be the best, if you're not, there's no point doing it" and as she does'nt think she can be the best, she's not bothering. You need to stop this lesson before she gets to secondary school, because if she hears that "getting A is all that matters" where you might have taken that as a push to work hard to get the A she might think "well as I can only get a B I'll just not bother at all" - and then fail completely. (Note, you might not say specifically she needs ot get A*s, but she might take that from your lack of support if she doesn't do as well or if you make a big fuss of her sister getting great grades).

Support her in just doing stuff first. Then move on to doing that stuff well.

Oh and reading a lot of books is good! It doesn't need to be high brow, it doesn't need to be books that make her think or educate her, just reading for the sake of it is great! It's a fantastic hobby. Encourage it.

And stop asking questions! Really, train yourself out of it!

@CinnabarRed said

Interact on her terms, not yours.

That's exactly the point! She won't tell us what her terms are.

we want to encourage her to gain enthusiasm and be the best she can be

By your definition of 'best'. Not hers.

You might find "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" an interesting read.

She won't tell us what her terms are

But your DW has told us all exactly what her terms are: her swimming, her physical strength, her cooking, her stories, her drawings.

Those are the things to engage with her over.

Melpomene - it strikes me that living in your home must be really hard work for someone who isn't like the rest of you. Some people just aren't ever going to want to have indepth discussions of the social issues raised in a book they enjoyed - they just enjoyed reading it! Trying to push her to engage with the world in the way you want her to with puzzles and trick questions sounds really tiring to someone whose mind doesn't work that way.

Essentially I think you need to try to just accept her for who she is. Many families would take a lot of joy and pride in an affectionate child who likes to read and swim and tries hard at school. It must be tough for her being the odd one out in your family - it's not surprising she gives non-committal answers to your questions, she knows she will probably not have the answers you want.

How can she know what 'her terms' are? She's 10.

I get why you'd want to read a book she loved after she read it, and to discuss it. It's a normal, nice response. But maybe she felt that, since she already obviously feels unsure, that now you'd read the book, she would have nothing to say about it that you wouldn't already find obvious or wrong?

I mean, you're not getting her to feel she's the one transferring her knowledge to you - you're not putting yourself in an ignorant position and making her feel she's showing you something new she's discovered. Does that make any sense?

I am totally reading into this, btw, so excuse me if it doesn't.

And YY to DontmindifIdo - stop asking her questions. It's clearly not working. Remember Einstein's defintion of insanity?

My Dad is a software engineer. He is a wonderful man and an amazing father. He is also very task orientated and once he has begun trying to solve a problem he will become very focused on that, often to the exclusion of other things.

Some of the things you have said on this thread remind me of his approach to things. The response to her wanting to enter a competition is something my Dad might have said. He wouldn't have meant, "You can't do that" he would have meant, "It will take hard work and I don't want you to feel let down if it doesn't result in a prize."

I can see why you have had the responses that you have but I don't think they are deserved. I think that you might be struggling to communicate your love for your daughter in a way that she can understand. Have you read about Love Languages? (google it) I'd also recommend "7 habits of highly effective families" to give you some different strategies to try.

Hope that helps.

Oh that poor little girl just speechless.

"DD2 loves these type of trick questions and lateral thinking puzzles." Great. Play them with her. Just don't expect her sister to do the same, not everyone's brain works that way. I appreciate where you are coming from, I love this kind of riddle/puzzle, but many many people don't. It's not a problem that she doesn't, the problem lies with your expectation that she should do and your inability to understand that her brain doesn't work the way yours does.

Similarly, you wanted to talk about social problems in the book - she didn't, again I would imagine she simply enjoyed the book for the enjoyment it gave her, she doesn't have the linguistic or emotional toolset (yet?) to discuss it as a social treatise. She didn't want to discuss it with you, she wanted to share it and have you say "ooh I enjoyed that too". No intellectual dissection.

You can't force her to ask questions, or want to discuss Godel, or play mathematical logic games. You need to take a step back and let her grow into her own personality and intellect. She is clearly very different to the others in her family and it's a struggle for you to find common ground right now, but by continually offering her opportunities to see and try things (books on different subject, museums, sports, hobbies..) she'll latch on to some things eventually. Probably not things you understand or can have an intellectual discussion about, but it's her life. No reason she can't fulfil her potential, it just won't be the potential you've always wanted for her, or that her sister will achieve.

No reason she can't fulfil her potential, it just won't be the potential you've always wanted for her, or that her sister will achieve.

YY.

And, crucially, no worse that her sister - just different.

Poor poor little girl, this post had made me feel quite sick

@CinnabarRed said

^we want to encourage her to gain enthusiasm and be the best she can be

By your definition of 'best'. Not hers.^

Indeed. This is called "being the parents". Our job is to equip her with life skills that schools cannot or will not. By definition, these will not be her terms.

The thing is, you're just not taking on any suggestions, are you. You want us to suggest ways to 'fix' your daughter. We're saying no, you can't fix her - you can fix your parenting. Many of us are recognising elements of what went on in our own - rather dysfunctional - upbringings (for me, it's the "she only wants to read novels", which is what my father kept reproaching me with)*.

You won't fix her by barking questions at her. You won't fix her by trying to discuss 'social issues' with her (try saying "I liked it when they did X, what was your favourite bit?" instead). You will convince her that as nothing she ever does is good enough, she might as well not try in the first place.

*This was, mainly, true. I read lots of novels. I now have two English degrees, one of them from Oxford. I still read lots of novels. Oh, and my relationship with my father is virtually non-existent.

Melpomene I truly hope your post is not lost in the multitude, because it is very revealing and offers a much wider perspective.
Thank you for posting.

I think some flaming has been the direct result of your DH tone in responding. Threads can become heated because there is no expression to ameliorate, and words can be hard, but sympathetic replies tend to be more forthcoming when posters offer demonstrate some feelings of self doubt.
Which you do express more clearly.

However, I think my feeling remains the same. It is clear that you love your child. It is clear that she is praised. However I do not sense that you value the things you praise her for, because you do not see them as having any great value to her future achievements.
She also will have sensed this.

There is nothing wrong with the chess and rice game, if you enj=oy mental challenges of that kind and have a decent chance of getting the answer. One of my children would have adored such challenges.
The other would probably have left the room in tears because she could not do it.
Can you see that what is a challenge and 'stretch' for one child is purgatory for another to be faced with, if their brain doesn't work that way?

We all want the best for our children. We all want them to achieve as much as they can in life. We all like to help that process. BUT parenting is also about truly recognising your child for who they truly are. It may be that - given her seemingly high levels of empathy - your daughter would make an outstanding nurse - or similar. Her seeming 'absences' may be because she is creating amazing imaginative stories in her head, and may become a writer one day.

What we do know is that she feels lessened by things like the chess&rice games. And the quizzing games. And that reduces her sense of self worth. Every time.

You have acknowledged that you may be trying to hard. There is nothing wrong with trying to teach a child that they can reach their potential. The key is in understanding that it should be THEIR potential, not the parental expectation of potential.
Children are canny creatures. They know what their parents value and what they only pay lip service to.

All that people are trying to say here is that she will be more confident, more open, more comfortable to reach her potential if her parents VALUE her for who she is and what she does - not just praise, and pray for more.

Hi WhereInDoubt, I can see that you're feeling frustrated and are keen to make things better.

As other posters have said, I would recommend that you spend no-pressure, one-to-one time with her. The idea of the bake-off sounds really good, or an activity like working your way through a cookbook, doing a project together such as making something, going for a bike ride - something which appeals to her strengths.

"She won't tell us what her terms are"

During this time together, don't ask her "testing" questions. Concentrate on the task in hand and let her lead the conversation - as someone mentions, having a chance to talk with no eye contact and a task to focus on sometimes encourages children to talk much more. Ask for her expertise, but make it clear that that is what you are doing - "DD, you're really good at putting colours together, what do you think would go with this?"

You don't have to have big conversations. I love spending time with my dad just working on something together, even now!

I find those kinds of thinking puzzles frustrating and pointless. I'm just not wired that way. I was wired the correct way to get an Oxford first though.

While I'm on a "Famille MadBus rocks" kick, one of the things that makes DP a very in-demand and well-paid software developer is that he is genuinely interested in what makes other people tick, and how their approaches and styles of intelligence vary, and what their wants and needs are. He actually enjoys trying to comprehend mindsets other than his own; he has a gift for translating his way of looking at the world for other people, and taking them as he finds them. As a result, when he does tell them they are just flat wrong about something, and he is the expert and this is how things must be, he does so with tremendous authority. People hire him and rehire him because he talks, he listens, he engages, he changes his mind. He calls this "strong opinions weakly held". I have never met anyone more wide-eyed about the world, more interested in it and the variety it holds.

I draw all this out because I think the OP has interpreted the "black and white" comment someone made above with a revealing narrowness. There can certainly be many shades of grey within particular bounded problems like those found in software development, but they are still problems within certain parameters; rules apply, and it is a question of working within rules. If you see the world like that, it can be a struggle (but a worthwhile one) to realize that not everybody comprehends and slips easily into certain kinds of rule systems.

Can I put it like this: your daughter is good at solving problems that you don't even realize exist.

She is probably just going through a phase. When I was about 13 I remember feeling like I wasn't good at anything, I didn't know what I wanted to be and everything I did disappointed my parents: not wanting to do anything, moping around. I bet when she goes to secondary school she will meet new friends. She will be surrounded by a more diverse group of people so she won't feel competition from her sister (if she does). I bet she will soon be inspired by someone or something and you'll see a complete change. I'm no expert but it doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong. I bet my parents would have said the same when I was a moody little 13 year old. Dare I say it, she will discover boys soon so make the most of it before she does

@motherinferior wtf? what would me "taking on suggestions" look like? Are you watching me on a webcam? Are you spying on my mental internal dialogue as I try to filter the wheat from the abusive, self-righteous, ignorant nasty crapola that forms the majority of this thread?

Excellent post, Mad

Melpomene - your husband describes your daughter as a 'curate's egg' lower down this thread. I think that is one of the most casually abusive, bloody awful things I've ever read on this forum and I've seen some terrible tripe here. How are you not furious with him about that?

Neither of you can take refuge in the appearence that dd loves you. Children love their parents. Even the abusive ones. Love is not enough. That doesn't mean you're doing a great job.

The OP says dd is 'becoming' withdrawn. I think there are probably physical factors at play - puberty - to some degree. However the large part of the problem here is the parents. Parents who want one sort of child and not another. That's despicable.

whenInDoubt you're a really abusive person and you don't deserve the consideration and time people gave you on this thread and sadly your DD doesn't deserve to be thought of so little.

Er....because all you've done is snap back at people defensively?

'Taking on suggestions' would - let me explain this v-e-r-y clearly - entail saying 'ah, yes, that might be worth trying'. Clearly nothing on this thread has appealed. We haven't suggested ways to fix her to your liking. So all you do is snap back.