DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

Your OP has made me feel so sorry for your little girl. So many things that make me feel sad about this thread. I see a lot of myself in your OP. In fact it's so black and white that I was asking myself if you're a troll all the time I was reading it.

My dad was very pushy too, wanting me to prove myself more and show more signs of life all the time, but I also knew that he really enjoyed having ME around, his own daughter, without being impressive necessarily, without performing or standing out or being particularly interesting. And I still ended up with some issues which aren't easy to work through now. I refuse to believe that your daughter just sits there in a vegetative state like a lump. You need to take a step back and appreciate the fact that she will change, evolve and progress and if she doesn't show all the signs of being the sensitive and curious child you want her to be, it doesn't mean that she is not that child within. Maybe it's just that she's retreating into a shell because she senses an overwhelming pressure from you to prove that she has these innate qualities. Nurtureshock would be a good book for you to read.
So she reads books and doesn't tell you about them. Maybe her memory's indeed not so good, OR maybe she's just putting up a wall and doesn't want to be tested in case she doesn't measure up to your standards. She'd rather not try than fail because the consequences of one are less final than the consequences of the other. Is that possible? It certainly was for me when my dad pushed me to talk about what I'd been reading. I was determined to give all or nothing and since I couldn't be confident of giving the all he wanted because I didn't know exactly what he wanted, it was nothing he got.
Possibly she doesn't have any interest in science, or maybe it's just that she does have a general interest like any bright kid, but you're putting her off answering. See where I'm going? How do you react when she doesn't give satisfactory answers to your quizzing? Doesn't it bother you that teachers (even if you think they should be fostering higher standards) think more of your child than you seem to? She learns from that and adapts accordingly. You might be causing what you don't like in her, and you seem to be underestimating her. Children are excellent at setting up pretty sophisticated defence mechanisms which will give them a huge lot of trouble later on.

LET HER BE and love her and I think when she hits 18 you'll have someone you will be (or ought to be) very proud of.

Seeing how you react to other posters talking to you plainly on this thread doesn't make me very hopeful that you'll really consider what I'm saying, but I'm giving you an honest response in the hope that it might be in some way helpful. Otherwise I'll echo what another poster said and hope you can point her in the way of the stately homes thread when she's ready to be on mumsnet!

Sorry to be so rude but it touched a nerve. I don't want to upset anyone.

Perhaps she thought I was asking her a trick question, as I sometimes do

You sound downright bloody abusive to me.

I'll caveat this from the start. I just about remember being a teenager but as yet I don't have one.
To me, your daughter sounds like a teenager. A pre-teen obviously, but a teenager nonetheless. It's not unusual for children to go off previous hobbies, watch too much crap tv, disengage for a bit with the world around them and generally appear to operate in a fog. That applies to the brightest and the best as much as the average.

Teenagers need a lot more sleep - research this as well as the best time of day to engage with them. First thing in the morning they are mostly shattered, at the end of a long day at school, probably the same. She likes reading - is she reading into the wee hours unbeknownst to you and is perennially tired as a result as I was? She is probably reading material that holds little interest to you and is therefore loathe to open herself to implied criticism by describing the plotlines etc or lack of them. Be sure you aren't being an intellectual nazi about her reading choices if it's wall to wall Judy Blume or similar. Try to find some common ground even if it's a film version of a book you liked at her age.

This post seems to have turned into a bunfight so I'm not going to comment on it or your parenting approach. I suspect that you come across far harsher in print than you are in reality. Just be careful that if you have a child who you have literally nothing in common with in terms of intellectual interest, that you learn to at least feign a healthy interest and respect for what she is interested in.

Sweets and goodies - buy an ice-cream maker and have some fun. Making the stuff will also give her a healthy understanding of how much sugar goes into it.
She sounds arty - take her to a pottery cafe or similar and test your own painting skills. If you're as arty as the next software engineer, you'll give her a lovely opportunity to show you up
Does she go to Scouts or similar? Could you volunteer?
Concerned about her academically, talk to the school without her knowledge and establish if there is any real basis for concern because it doesn't sound like there is.
Do some reading on teen behaviours.
I'm not going to suggest that you run Myers Briggs tests on your family but if you've ever been through it yourself, you will know that people are motivated by totally different things and respond in very different ways under pressure or in conflict. Try to bear that in mind.
Most of us have a sibling with whom we have nothing in common. In smaller families it is just more pronounced.

OP - just to share from one of my friends - she has 2 DSs. One, the eldest is 3 months younger than my DS, but was sitting up-right, talking, walking, counting etc before my DS. He's physically and mentally ahead. Now older, it's clear he's gifted. Her younger child is a worry to her, I hear - why isn't he talking/walking/counting/he doesn't know his colours yet! over and over. I keep saying he's doing it at the right time, look at ideas for milestone dates and he's hitting them on time. Yet she just says "yes but XXX was doing this by Y". She can't see that it's not that there's anything wrong with her youngest, it's just that her eldest is gifted.

What I'm trying to say is your DD1 sounds normal, your DD2 (and you!) could be gifted/ahead so in comparassion it looks like there's a problem with DD1 - you think she's the abnormal one, not your DD2 and you.

What I would do if I was you is try to be more encouraging - and that means you have to accept it's ok for her to not win! In the competition situation, you need to learn to bite your tongue when you want to nag her into doing something good enough to win, and realise at this stage, it's more important that she takes part. Taking part and coming last would be preferable to what you did, which was to go on about having to be good enough to win so she didn't want to take part anymore - she might have tried, done badly but enjoyed it and next time put more effort in.

I agree the cycling could be a good thing for you two to do together. She doesn't need to be the next Victoria Pendleton, she just needs to have a nice time with her dad. Try having a day out with her where you ask no questions, see if she has more fun. Your DD1 is not your DD2 (or you) so she might need to be parented differently. Stop making that her problem and make it yours.

As I keep pointing out, I don't have to say a thing to give her an inferiority complex about her sister. What I may be risible at is repairing the damage she inflicts on herself after her younger sibling has beaten her in an activity, game or competition. I try not to reinforce it, if I do it "subliminally" then that's going to be harder to fix, of course. My wife and I have worked hard to shore up her esteem, whilst treating them as equal-but-different.

It is not a passive process whereby poor children are victims of evil parents. Younger sister knows how to get my attention and engage me. She is canny and has a sophisticated Theory of Mind that her elder sibling either does not, or does not exploit. They battle for my attention, and I struggle to keep the playing field level. It is not malicious in that harm to the sibling is intended, but it may well be that harm is caused.

@Flogginmolly said

You sound downright bloody abusive to me

to which I repost:

Like what? Like "here's a thing about the world that you might not have expected, isn't that interesting?" FFS what sort of parent are you if you don't try and get them to have a sense of intrigue and wonder about the world and not take everything for granted?

Seriously, you think that teaching children that the world is a complex, wonderful, fascinating, confounding place is "abuse"? Really?

I don't have to say a thing to give her an inferiority complex about her sister
Younger sister knows how to get my attention and engage me

Poor dd1 , your response to her sister is probably enough . You play favourites and wonder why she withdraws. Make time to see each on their won and indulge whatever interest they have at the time. Girls are whimsical but you may find dd2's enthusiasm for your interests is as much about winning her your time and attention as it is about her being actually interested. Maybe her sister is simply more honest so shies away from your tests games.

I think asking her trick questions, with tripping her up and decimating her already low self esteem as the apparent agenda is abusive, yes.

I've read the entire thread and agree with a lot of the helpful suggestions, and agree that some responses have been hyperbolic.

You need to give her eldest the attention she deserves without it having to be a battle of wits with her sibling. Perhaps you need to put aside your own interests and desires, and therefore intrinsic 'link' to your youngest, and say "No" to her, and engage in some quality time with your eldest instead?

Additionally, your eldest seems like a kind, gentle soul, from the descriptions you give. Perhaps find a way to nurture those attributes, and definitely, definitely avoid the trick questions!!! For goodness sake, nothing will switch somebody off something more than worrying they will be 'caught out' and made to look stupid...

And definitely consider that she is a pre-teen and this is a normal phase!!

@LIZS I said I don't play favourites. But I am hardly going to reply to DD2's questions with "don't ask me anything because you are taking time away from your sister" am I?

"Younger sister knows how to get my attention and engage me. She is canny and has a sophisticated Theory of Mind that her elder sibling either does not, or does not exploit. They battle for my attention, and I struggle to keep the playing field level."

Are you an actual adult?

Goodness, this thread has made my breath catch in my throat. I have two boys, I don't care what they can do, only that they are kind and brave. As long as they are compassionate towards others, they will make me proud. I think OP, that you are over complicating your role as a parent. All your daughters need from you, are roots and wings.

I'm sorry you are getting a raw deal from posters here, you do appear to be genuinely asking for help and I hope you keep channels open so that we can help you.

I think the fact that your daughter is afraid of making mistakes and the fact that they are competing for your attention are the key factors here.

Dealing with the competition aspect is easy. I would suggest playing lots of games with them that are entirely about luck and not skill - mainly card games, dice games etc.

Your dd seems fed up with you (hence her response about the air getting cold) and you are in danger of losing your bond with her because you are disappointed with her and that must be very hard for her to handle.

So I suggest you have lots of bonding time with her, do stuff with her where you let her lead, watch tv with her, play football or catch with her, just don't make it a competition, firmly button your lip and say as little as possible. Let her lead, let her tell you what you are doing and if she says nothing, just sit with her and be with her. Do this every day, even if it's just for 5 minutes. Try to let go of her.

"Seriously, you think that teaching children that the world is a complex, wonderful, fascinating, confounding place is "abuse"? Really?"

She might actually have a "complex, wonderful, fascinating, confounding" world inside her head.

Away from you, away from your judgement, your disappointment and your disapproval.

Hey whenInDoubt, perhaps it would help you to think about those people who are brighter than most but achieve no more success in life than mere average folk. Early promise does not necessarily translate to fulfilled promise.
Also, I have seen from experience that the "beautiful people" are not necessarily happier.
Both of these things are also worth reminding to a teenage girl with low self esteem.

Some more random thoughts you might ponder:
Perhaps your eldest daughter is of a more modest disposition? (old fashioned I know,but still admirable)
You say your younger daughter is "canny and has a sophisticated Theory of Mind"- wow not much pressure on either of them there then- thats an unreasonable expectation for either of your children, imo.

@Flogginmolly here is a trick question:

Barbers shave the men who don't shave in the town. Do barbers shave themselves?

Or another:

If you go back in time to kill your grandfather, how can you be alive to do it? (note: they loved the Back to the Future movies).

It's a bit of philosophical fun. Like an optical illusion but with words. Wow, how esteem-destroying it must be to see it as a duck and a rabbit?

You're still not seeing it are you?

Your OP was that "She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes." But in your later posts you finally get around to telling us about the good things she can do, which are far and beyond that summary. Why are you putting those last?

If you think your attitude towards your elder DD isn't obvious to her you are kidding yourself. If she has emotional intelligence - which from when you finally wrote about her positives, it appears she has - then she'll be very aware about how she is a disappointment.

If you interact with your daughter in the same pompous and verbose way that you are on this thread, then you are doing yourself no favours.

Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

From what you've written, I'd be surprised if your younger daughter's enthusiasm didn't elicit a more enthusiastic response from you that was patently obvious to both girls.

Why, when she wanted to enter the competition, didn't you respond enthusiastically, asking her what she thought he entry would look like, did she want a hand with it or offer to take her somewhere to learn more about the subject? Instead your response was negative, and communicated to her volumes about what you think of her abilities and application. Even if you'd said something like 'hey, shall we cave a think together about what we can learn from that last competition entry, and how it could have been even better? That might help with this one' it would have been a more positive and collaborative parenting response.

And why do you ask children trick questions?

But clearly your eldest doesn't find it fun. not sure I would either tbh

"A bit of philosophical fun"

I have a degree in Philosophy. I talk to my children about Skylanders, Scooby Do and dragons as they are the things they are in to at the moment. I bake with my youngest as she likes to lick the cake bowl out and paint with my eldest as he likes to draw things.

They are different. It doesn't matter.

Try having that attitude.

It's not a troll it's just a man.

@PoppyAmex yes I'm an adult. Adults tend to ask for help when they need it, and when another adult asks for help and they have a resource that is of use, they might feel motivated to communicate it.

Ignorant, petulant socially maladjsted children, on the other hand, prefer single-line insults, sarcasm (as soon as they learn how) and judgmental condemnation. Especially if they can launch all of that from behind the firewall of the internet!

I work with 10 year olds and agree that a lot of them can become quite 'teenager-y' at this age and show less enthusiasm and intrigue than 8 year olds.

Why not try something that she won't feel is academic and she can therefore get 'wrong' like going to the park with a ball, or for a walk at a nature reserve or to a farm? Something she'll see as just fun. If I ask the children I work with what they enjoyed over the weekend, these tend to be the things they mention. If the two of you begin to enjoy spending time together, maybe then she'll enjoy sharing some of your interests too, as well as developing her own.