DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

And OP those are not trick questions, those are riddles.

And if it's a riddle I hope you precede it with 'Can you answer this riddle?', with a smile on your face, and hopefully a smile on hers.

If she's not smiling, you just have to think of something that will make her smile.

Those aren't really trick questions, especially the second.

Trick questions are what would lead her to answer a question where she suspected the answer would be 'hot' with the opposite, because she thinks you might be trying to trip her up.

Why don't you carve out one on one time? Each of you has two hours a week one on one with each of the girls, doing a mix of what they like and what you like. Works best if at least one parent/child pairing is out if the house. If at home you should make sure you're devoting the time to a project, not just mooching around. She likes cooking and TV - why not recreate some of the recipes from Bake Off and laugh about trying to recreate bread octopuses or even simple bread? They have lots of ions and simple recipes online that you could try. Keep the chemistry of proving and baking out of it unless she asks, though.

I don't have children but wanted to pick up on a couple of particular points.

Just because she can't talk articulately about the books she's reading doesn't mean that she's not getting anything from them. Children (and adults) can absorb lots without being able to articulate it (which is a different skill).

And - having an interest in the world around you requires some spare mental space. If your daughter's constant interior monologue is 'I'm no good, my younger sister is better at everything than me' then she won't have much spare capacity to be interested in thermodynamics or whatever.

when please don't shoot me for saying this I'm genuinely trying to make a suggestion. Does she have a pet.

Pets can be soooo valuable to a child they learn more about themselves and gain confidence as the animal doesn't talk just listens and unlike us parents who bumble along and get it wrong so many times , a cat or dog just seems to know and is just there.

Could you get one for her?? If not a cat or dog a pair of guinea pigs or rats or something.

I'm honestly not trying to take the piss I promise.

@babyheave

Your OP was that "She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes." But in your later posts you finally get around to telling us about the good things she can do, which are far and beyond that summary. Why are you putting those last?

Well because there is a problem I want to solve. I may have got it out of proportion (as some helpful posters have noted) but simply trumpeting my DD1's strengths didn't seem to communicate what I wanted - namely the problem at hand. Curate's egg?

@Wheresmycaffeinedrip we have guinea pigs. They are not the most affectionate of beasts (though they will put up with most attempts to snuggle given a handful of basil leaves) which is a shame.

Might she perhaps prefer a less frantic pace of life and pressure to perform . Maybe you are trying just a little too hard to entertain and be entertaining and make her find a niche. At that age she should have freedom to try and determine what she likes or not, and not feel she has somehow failed if her preferences are not yours.

Ok then scrap that

Just both me and my dd are never happier than with animals and she really does open up and get interested around them and I honestly believe they can help more than anything or anyone in making her feel good about herself.

I think mooncup has made an excellent point - that avid readers aren't necessarily avid talkers. The process of reading will stand her in good stead whatever she does and although it may seem to be a bit of escapism at the moment it shows that she is not only interested in things around her but she is also interested things outside her own everyday environment.

One day she will put all she's absorbed together and make something tangible out of it - it just takes time sometimes.

So basically she's a lovely, kind little girl who tries hard at school and is community spirited, but because she's not as bright/academic as her sister she's a disappointment to you?

But if you accept her strengths and accept that she's different from her sister and differernt from you, there ceases to be a problem.

The problem as you state it, is that she's not matching up to your expectations. I'm saying, change your expectations and put her strengths first in your mind.

Can I just reiterate: I am not disappointed with DD1. I am disappointed that I (and my wife who is considerably more relaxed then me) find it frustratingly difficult to find meaningful ways to interact with her. I totally realise she is an individual and will - probably quietly, and in her own way and time - find a path in life.

I have never, and hope never to, denied her cuddles and affection, and frequently offer them apropos of very little; but we're all human beings, we all have buttons, kids push boundaries and then the buttons behind them and then we get negative emotion. People get cross. People show disappointment. And you know what? That's perfectly normal. So could all those posters who seem to want to use condemnation of others' parenting to hide their own feelings of inadequacy please leave the thread now?

Op, are you more used to dealing with black and white issues? Are you hoping that if your daughter receives x input she will behave in y way? She is not a line of code. She is a person. You can't fix people. It doesn't sound like she's faulty to start with.

Cross posted, but Op really this is about you not about her, what do you want? What should we say?

What do you mean by "meaningful"?

Nt everything has to have a purpose or educational value you know...

I'm going to ignore your answer to my post - you clearly like your adjectives and are fond of labelling people; but that was plain to see from your OP.

You tell me you're "looking for help", but that's not actually true is it?

What you really want is to "fix" your child and turn her into the person you want her to be, while denying responsibility for the part you're playing in affecting her self-esteem.

Your lack of humility is frankly astounding.

You know what when I'm not sure your going to win on this thread.

You never know, maybe it will improve at secondary school. More kids , more diversity with other children's hobbies and interests and you may find she finds herself for want of a better phrase. In meantime just be patient. These things do take years and I do know how frustrating it can be when you are so worried about something.

I think if there were any actually abnormal or worrying issues Pre school and school would have picked up on it.
I do believe you genuinely want the best for your dd but she just may not be ready to step out if her comfort zone just yet. Just give her time. :)

whenInDoubt - People won't leave the thread because you don't like what they are saying.

Go back and read your own posts. We've not, as a whole, randomly picked out of nowhere that you're disappointed in your DD. We've got that from what you've written.

Can you really not see it?

You are being given help, you're just refusing to step out of your current field of thought and take on board what is being said, so really, you may as well leave the thread yourself.

I think it's common for children this age to be a bit frustrating. We all want our LOs to do well, be bright and engaging, shine and love what they do. But, basically at 10 they are stepping away from us preparing to enter an adolescent world full of their own preoccupations. Try not to be over critical, or control, I find that such a hard task personally! Let her know you'd love to share something she enjoys, maybe computer games, maybe shopping, maybe cooking. And let your fears about her educational ability take a backseat, just for a while. Maybe if you both relax a little you will see more of her character. Maybe you won't, but your relationship with her will benefit. Also. Please do ask her teacher to elaborate on the report and maybe express your concerns about effort, because that might be better addressed in parent-school teamwork. Good luck x

@purrpurr I realise this is indeed about me because that's all I can really change. It might be "relax, things are probably OK". Or it might be "hey my kid was like that, it passes" or "hey my kid was like that, here's what I did..."; or "have you tried..." even if there's no direct experience.

In obvious counterpoint, what NOT to say includes

"You are a shit parent"
"Asking trick questions is abuse"

It's not rocket science. It's about constructive dialog. I popped home at lunchtime and the kids gave me a massive hug and told me they'd missed me. I'm clearly not doing everything wrong, so the vast bulk of hyperbolic abuse that I have tolerated on this thread was ill-judged and utterly disrespectful. So I won't apologise for being defensive.

As to "black and white issues"... that's interesting. But most of what I do as a software engineer is a kind of complex compromise, it is remarkably shades-of-grey (many more than 50). I'm used to having no simple answers :)

Is the OP writing The Mumsnet Guide To Fucking Your Kids Right Up ?

I trust that I am not being one of the Ignorant, petulant socially maladjsted children offering single-line insults, sarcasm (as soon as they learn how) and judgmental condemnation when I try to put a concept into very simplistic terms which will avoid sounding judgemental.

The reason that your child compares herself unfavourably to her sibling is because she has not learned how to value herself for the things at which she excels. Is is fine for a child to see a sibling at brighter or quicker at games - there will always be differences. A child learns to have low self esteem when they are not equally praised for the things at which they excel. Even if not academic. What do you consider your DD1 does far better than her sibling? not what do you try to spin, for her sake, but genuinely what qualities make her amazing in your eyes?

Your more recent posts indicate that you don't 'play favourites' and have tried to be encouraging. This is positive, but the posts still give the feeling that you genuinely do think DD1 is not as motivated, communicative, emotionally intelligent, nuanced and sharp as her sibling.
The fact that this is not stated in so many words does not mean that children do not absorb full understanding of how parents feel about their children. It is very hard to hide.

As your DD moves into the hormonal stage of pre- adolescence and onward, the emotions which have simply been a fact of life for her will come under greater stresses, and she will begin to challenge.

All anyone here has been trying to say is that your daughter is behaving very normally, but may have some real issues with feelings of inferiority;
and that you can change how she feels about herself by celebrating who she is, not seeing her as being less of an achiever than her sibling.

You posted to ask for opinions.
That is the considered bulk of opinion.

I have a question of my own.
Are you, at any point, open to considering the fact that your daughters feelings and emotions are rooted in the way in which she is viewed by you?

@ArtexMonkey gibbered

Do 'people get cross' and 'people show negative emotions' or do you do those things op? Own your shit. Don't use language to abdicate responsibility for getting it wrong.

I'm not a Vulcan. Earth to you: THEY WERE FICTIONAL. You are showing negative traits RIGHT NOW (or at least at the time you made the post). So expecting me never to show negative traits in family life is ... well pretty delusional.

Hi OP.

I think you are genuine, and you truly want to help your daughter. Some people have attacked you which has made you defensive. Have you read noobieteacher's post? What do you think?

You do come across (to everyone on this forum) as judgemental and discouraging. You do seem to value academic intelligence in a way that is a bit out of proportion.

Your response to your daughter's desire to enter a competition was a strong clue to your attitude, and many people have pointed this out to you. For a girl like your daughter, merely sending in a contribution would be a huge achievement. I would be thrilled if my slightly insecure 11 year old wanted to compete for something, and would be very proud of her for taking part. I would strongly de-emphasise the winning / losing aspect of the event.

I think if you are genuinely enjoying your daughter's company and sincerely supporting her in whatever she wants to do, you will help her gain confidence. Maybe she is good at being a friend, playing imaginatively, dressing up and putting on little plays, taking care of younger children. Has she tried drama? running a lemonade stand? helping at the village fete? pet-sitting for a neighbour? helping at a young child's birthday party? These are a few of the things which my daughter has gained confidence from doing.

I think you should reflect on why people have all reacted the way they have. I think your first post came across worse than it should have done because you are upset and worried and venting your feelings. Still, you should see that your post did expose something which you could improve about your parenting.