3.5 yr old DD is a bit too intense for other parents. HELP!!

[bellbottom]

Hello,
feeling a bit down and lonely.
Without wanting to ' label' my dd as I don't like doing that, she is the kind of child that other kids love but seems to be causing concern to other parents. It's making me feel singled out and alone, which I find very hard to cope with as I am already a single mum, no dad involved, living abroad without family. So i have only myself to turn to, besides mumsnet and a few close friends.
Dd is very high energy, both mentally and physically. She is also very mature and perceptive for her age, persistent and very assertive, strong minded and tough. She is also a huge amount of fun to be with, has a huge sense of humour. All in all, larger than life.
I don't have any worries that she'll be fine in life. Only that she does seem to be a bit too overwhelming for some parents. She is a leader type of person and sometimes becomes quite mischeivious with her friends, also in their company she tends to egg them on a bit and those kids start to become less obedient to their parents. She is also going through a phase of light teasing, which in my mind is harmless and only a reflection of her looking for more of a challenge. I'm confident it will pass. It's only things like, 'I have this and you do not'. Or ' i can go faster than you' etc. Recently things have become a little tense between myself and the parents of her best friend. Up till now it was great, and now we have had to have discussions. It seems they have taken little things really personally, like dd was trying to blow out the candles of his birthday cake, she told him her grandma was prettier than his, that kind of thing, at his party. I see it as harmless and i interpret it as her trying to say that she too has a grandma that she loves very much and misses as she's in england. And with the other stuff its just that she wants to be a part of what he has and doesnt yet know what it means to let him have his moment of glory all for himself.
I'm getting scared about how she'll fit in in the future. Especially worried if she is perhaps reacting to the fact that she has no family here like other kids do. Is it a sign that she is going to strike out about this in the future even more? Or am I making too much of this?
Are there any other parents out there with intense and bright kids? I read up on spiritied kids, but I don't think she fits that description, as she never cries for long, gets over problems quickly, sleeps right through every night guranteed. I don't think she is a spirited child. But does anyone with a smiliar child have any advice they can offer?
Thanks

Agree it shouldn't be JUST about image, but I still think it's important that it's dealt with (to some extent) in front of the other parents to show them you are taking it seriously.

I think the OP has been treated unfairly and posters have made some very nasty and spiteful comments about a 3 year old girl!

A boy tried to blow out DS1's candles at his 4th birthday. [Shrugs]. We just relit them and did them again. The boy in question is about 8 now and still a good friend of DS1's. And I would laugh if a child said to one of my DCs "my grandma is prettier than yours" . I mean, come on...perspective anyone?

I thought you were going to tell us that your 3 year old is torturing guinea pigs or something.

I do agree with the consensus that if your DD does make a boastful comment then you should tell her that that it isn't nice to make comments like that etc etc. It's all part of the learning process.

I think your DD sounds fab. Just make sure you carry on correcting her behaviour particularly if it impacts on other children.

I can remember my DB making comments like "why are you fat?" to people when he was about that age. Used to drive my mum mad. And he grew up into a fairly nice adult

Just wanted to add some personal experience of this. Dd2 has never really understood what is and isn't appropriate behaviour, she also struggled with not being the centre of attention. What I have learnt is that she needs to be taught much more explicitly about social rules/ appropriate behaviour than other children who pick up on these things much more implicitly. We play role play every evening with her barbies teaching her how people should act. Often she has no comprehension of what she is doing as being wrong or inappropriate. She just hasn't picked up on this as well as others so I spend a lot of time teaching her and praising her when she gets it right. Thankfully she seems to be able to make friends very easily and they adore her but I do think without the input we do around social rules she would not keep her friends. Have you tried this more direct teaching as it may help. You must find it very difficult if people are ostracising her/ not keen on having her around. You have my sympathies not every child instinctively gets social rules.

Maxybrown, can I come iver for a visit and see who you really are?

My DD was exactly like yours at 3.5 and I struggled. And still do. I think that age is particular is difficult because you are moving between the 'relishing and celebrating every milestone stage' to the 'honing a socially adept and acceptable individual' stage. I always felt on the back foot because I couldn't pre-empt the kind of things she would come out with because other kids didn't have her vocab/level of interaction, etc. But I have always made it clear to her what kind of behaviour is acceptable and what is not when the occasion has arisen. To the point where it was difficult to find anything positive to her some days so we had to concentrate on themes, e.g. listening to instructions and using a marble jar as reward for that. It worked to some extent. She would have been so excited to see candles I could just imagine her trying to blow them out too, knowing that that is what one does with candles. She is such a yap that I am confronted with a sea of information and requests before I have woken my brain up in the morning and unless I have a concrete plan with detailed instructions/boundaries to set 1st thing in the morning, the day can easily slide into a negative atmosphere with me having to pull her up for every misdemeanour. She is now 5 and we are still battling with having empathy for others (will take a look at that superpowers book) and thinking before she speaks. It makes me worry for her socially, and it is not for lack of trying on our part. She has a sibling too, and their relationship is very much based on competitive 'mine' 'me first' 'mine is better'-type interactions. I feel like a record on repeat with them. I am just thankful to hear from this thread that it may work (eventually). I do think there are kids who take on board discussions about behaviour better than others. I have an 'other'. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong.

MM - I just try to get it right and like you, can be an excuse mongerer if I'm in that sort of mood! It's a learning curve and I think it changes depending on what ages / phases they're going through. When ds2 was born we went easier on ds1 and evenings after nursery I'm a bit more lax than other days as I know they are both shattered. I have seen competitive parenting - but only a few times. Each time I pitied the child because the mum just seemed to be self righteous and too loud. It really made me think I didn't want to be like that. I think as long as the other parents can see the child is being taken off for a talking to, that will do.

Agree with what you are saying about teachers and that is another reason I need to crack down in a few areas, mainly around him getting to do what he wants and not do what he doesn't want, (and hurry up getting dressed) - as Ds1 starts school next year... although I think he saves that behaviour for home/family!

sure

Mouth, better that way around. My ds1 saves bad behaviour for school and is wonderful at home. It's a bit painful that way round. He swore at a teacher (aged 5), a word I have, never ever EVER heard him say at home. I was utterly mortified.

Well there you go then. Go to work FT and you won't have to bother with other mothers OR correcting your child's behaviour. Sorted!

Ouch popbiscuit. That kind of comment fuels paranoia in working mums who don't have a choice but to work.

No offense meant to mums who have no choice. But to posters who claim to work because they want to avoid Other Mothers and all the hassles that go along with negotiating discipline in social situations...fair game.

smallwhitecat, I can imagine that you probably don't often apologise to people if you bump into them by accident. Why on earth should you ever acknowledge your mistakes to make other people feel better?

No-body is suggesting loud competitive parenting just that there is some parenting iyswim?

You can take a child aside, whisper in their ear, gently remind them of the rules without causing a scene.

I always say to DS I have something to tell him, he comes, I'll remind him about using nice words, say what he said to X was unkind and he needs to put it right, give him a cuddle and then send him on his way. Anyone who didn't see/hear what he did would just think it was normal mother/child conversation.

The one time he refused, I picked him up, carried him outside whilst he screamed! then calmly spoke to him and sent him back in. He was so embarassed about the fact his friends had seen it he didn't do it again.

Some children are more strong-willed than others and I agree with whoever said ^^ that you need to find what works for your DD - but if she's bright she'll soon work out the best way to behave when she knows what the boundaries are.

I work FT I still have to deal with other parents and correcting DS' behaviour. I want me one of those other FT jobs which exempt you - where are these.

Jamiecomehome - love the letterbox link - thanks for that.

Problem is op your bright, outgoing, spirited little treasure is every other mothers pain in the arse

Mouth and FunnyPeculiar. You have both been really helpful in offering me constructive advice and fair observations of my feelings too. It has been a big relief and thankyou for being so understanding. You were right Mouth - MaxyBrown is just getting my back up time and time again on this thread as has STILL not offered one single little tiny shred of advice or an ounce of understanding for why I came on here needing help, so I totally fail to see what her aim is for being here and find it hard to imagine her being in a caring profession at all, let alone being an expert on kids.
LingDiLong - when DD tried to blow out candles I was right there and I stepped in before she could do it and told her it was not her cake and it was her friends birthday so he would blow them out. When she said the comment about the grandma I wasn't there, i only heard about it a few days later. I have been using role play at home with dolls and also between dd and I, have been practicing saying nice things to each other and giving happy responses, like a game, at dinner table. I have also been talking to her about feelings and labelling feelings. I also spoke to her about her actions that day at the party and she has asked me if she should aplologise next time she sees them. I said I think its a good idea.
I agree absolutely that things start at home and I do feel I am a conscientious parent. I sometimes read my parenting books and I regularly read mumsnet and seek tips. I try my very hardest, honestly I do. I don't want DD to be alienated from her friends when shes older, nor me from other parents. I guess I have been trying hard also not to focus too much on things in a dramatic or overly serious way, in case that has the reverse effect. I've been feeling like there is a delicate balance between seeing it as a silly phase of growing up and nipping it in the bud from growing into a more serious problem later on. Thats why I came on here. FunnyPeculiar - one of the things you said has really struck a chord with me. Because DD is very competetive it seems (and I think she can't get into a sports team soon enough when starting school, to channel this, as also very sporty type) and since you said that giving other kids praise for their good behaviour spurs her on, I also think this could give the desired effect with my DD too and I wlll certainly try that as they seem to have similar characters, by the way you described her.
I guess I came on here because the penny did drop, that something needs to be done in some way. I was hoping for some empathy and tips, but didn't need anyone to make me feel worse, as I was already feeling down. its not easy raising a kid, especially on your own, with noone to back to you up at home. Its a tough job.
I'm counting my blessings, that DD is very social, confident and knows her own mind, a keen and fast learner, popular, fun to be with, interesting, strong and healthy. I now see that with those things she needs very little help. But she does need help to grasp empathy, to nurture her softer side and to identify and care about feelings, to protect the feelings of others that she loves. I think she finds that hard also because she is very tough and bounces back from things in seconds herself, so I guess its a challenge for her to apply being more sensitive with others when she has somewhat less of a need than most in that way. I will keep on going with trying to nurture that in her and also help her to identify her own feelings as perhaps she is out of touch with that a little bit and maybe she needs to be reminded that she doesn't need to be so tough. I do always show her empathy when I think she needs it but I never overdo it. Maybe I need to actually talk about feelings much more often and be consistent.
Despite those that I feel have pulled together to attack me on this thread, I too am tough and will not let it get me down (yes, like mother like daughter, I am also well aware of that, but its also not easy to rewind being tough when your'e a single mum, as that's the only way forward in that situation, i'm sure there are others on this thread and who know what I mean by that. I guess its a natural equation that DD is influenced by that as I am her main role model) I do thank very much those that have taken the time to reply and offer any words of personal wisdom to help me through and enable me and DD to bring about some positive change.
On that note, night night everyone. Its very late here.

Wowzers! This is one of those threads on MN that have to be seen to be believed.

OP your daughter sounds just fine. You sound just fine. She is 3.5 (FFS to other posters!!!). Keep nurturing her, detach a bit from any tricky parents- just don't see friends so much for a while (!), and in a year you'll all have come out the other side.

Sleep well.

I can certainly relate to being a LP.

One thing I will say (and I hope is the case here) is that sometimes you feel more of a need to be perfect - because there's no-one else to blame! - and therefore can make things sound worse than they are (your OP did sound quite negative re DD - but I mean that as constructive critism) and also you can put more pressure on yourself for your child to be the one that blends in iyswim.

I was always paranoid that people would think 'oh YAK's DS was really at Y's party' and it would be linked to - but she's a single parent/ what do you expect etc etc.

Please try and remember your DD is who she is, she does sound from the OP a right madam but you are doing what you can to correct her and guide her and you can be a madam and nice at the same time iyswim?! Ask yourself if you can do more? If the answers no persevere with what your doing and if it's yes pick one battle at a time!

I have a tip for you OP. Try your hardest to look at your dd's behaviour as just that: behaviour.

In social situations where things seem to be flaring up (or afterwards when you are thinking about them), avoid any thoughts of your daughters 'spitritedness', 'brightness' or 'intensity' and just wonder what someone know has no knowledge of your daughter would think of a 3.5yo doing/saying whatever she just did. If it would be judged out of line then address it, don't follow it up in your head with 'but it's only because....'.

I know lots of children, but I don't 'know' them that well IYSWIM. The things that stand out for me as another parent are Bad Behaviour or Good Behaviour. They are really all I know about my DCs classmates and friends. I'm not really interested if a child is 'very social, confident and knows her own mind' or whether a child is funny or sporty, I need to know that if they come to a birthday party I organise the child will be pleasant enough to have around.

If you want to help her, do your best to make sure she passes that test or parents will avoid including her. No-one is that interested in your child (that's what parents are there for ) and most will think like me and encourage their DCs in friendships with children who can be relied on not to upset others.

I totally agree with LemonDifficult.

Your friends don't care how bright, assertive, strong minded etc your daughter is. She is presenting as naughty. So they will assume she is naughty.

Stop her being naughty and you won't be ostracised.

Also, a good test of whether or not your daughter's behavior is acceptable is the reactions of her peers.

It is not acceptable for a child to blow out another child's birthday candles. It's a big fat no no.

You are assuming that everyone is jumping on you on this thread from their own agenda, out of jealousy or spite or bloody mindedness - and it's not that at all. It's that we are picturing what you describe in your OP and what comes to mind is a naughty child with a mother who is proud of her naughty qualities, achild who isn't going to stop being naughty because cruel behavior is wrapped up in motherese as "Light teasing", rudeness is wrapped up as "Strong minded", and spoilt nagging is wrapped up as "Persistant and assertive".

Now, you're either being harsh when you are describing your daughter, or you're being accurate and she really is a bit of a mare to deal with.

Just a thought, re -reading this - you say only two parents (or sets of) have commented to you about there being a problem. I bet many others are thinking it, or not bothering to tell you because they don't feel like it will have an effect - as on here.

bellbottom - hello and hope you are holding up after over 140 messages! You will receive posts that concur with you, and posts that don't - that's the nature of a forum.

FWIW - what you have reported doesn't sound a lot of different what some of my DNs have (in the course of their lives) got up to! They are now decent, kind adults. And occasionally, my own and other friends' kids have done something similar......and made one want to crawl into a hole - but one teaches them it is wrong immediately - plus a very profuse apology to the person they've offended as well as getting the child to apologise immediately.

I would have been mortified if my child attempted to and succeeded at blowing out another child's candles. You managed to prevent it before it happened, so no harm done. Also at the remark about another child's grandmother. She possibly thought she was simply telling the truth about her opinions, as she'd always been told to tell the truth, but did not know that the remark might hurt someone or annoy them. Not terrible deeds in themselves, but if they are persistently happening, might suggest that she isn't aware of social boundaries - and will need to be taught them. I suspect you've already done so.

That said, it may seem like only your DD is being "too intense". I suspect that if you get to know other parents better and chat to them about their kids, theirs will have done some outrageous things or said some mortifying comments at some point. They're kids - those who say they haven't are either not being truthful or are really in the dark about what their kids have been up to! Just to illustrate - a couple we know are (without exaggerating) one of the kindest, nicest, wisest, sweetest people I've ever met. Both are counsellors and really do practise what they preach. But when their DS was young (I think he was about 7 or 8), he was a bit of terror when with other kids, a handful in class. His lovely dad didn't believe this - after all, he'd tried to set a good example, taught the right behaviour, and his son was well behaved at home. After more worrying reports from teachers and other parents, he sat in at the back without letting his son know, and was shocked at his son's wild behaviour - talking back, disobeying, playing with things he was told not to pick up. It was an eye opener for him. Needless to say, he had several talks with his DS when they got home. His DS is now a decent young man.

On one hand, I'd say she's 3, no big deal. She's still small. It's different if she were behaving like this at 13. But it just goes to show that kids will continue to test us, and make us work hard at parenting them, especially when you think they're doing well and can relax for a bit!

I don't think you actually are open to hearing any advice. Which is a shame. I don't have any interest in tearing you down or being nasty about your child. But the advice I have for you is probably not what you want to hear.

I do know this personality type very well; this is what my DSD is/was like. She is 16 now. I did not know her as a small child, but I have heard all the stories, and I have known her now for 4 years. All the words you use to describe your DD:
high energy, both mentally and physically. She is also very mature and perceptive for her age, persistent and very assertive, strong minded and tough. She is also a huge amount of fun to be with, has a huge sense of humour. All in all, larger than life.
This is my DSD. These are the qualities which make her wonderful - but also the ones which make her a pain in the ass. Both things are true - as with most people, our finest assets are also our biggest weaknesses. It is up to you to help her learn to manage her strong personality so that she does not become a bully or a bore...to make that high energy work for her and not against her...to turn her toughness to resilience and not to insensitivity...

When I first met DSD, I remember saying to my sister "in 15 years time, she's either going to be an amazing, beautiful woman, or she's going to be an incredibly arrogant, difficult, lonely one."

DSD is doing OK socially, now. But she had a very hard time as a younger child. She was kicked out of nursery for the kind of behaviours you are describing. At primary, she had trouble making friends. She was ostracised by other kids after incidents in which she came on too strong.

I think you need to consider the possibility that, to paraphrase an old cliche, "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist." You'll be doing your DD and everyone around her a huge favour if you temper her behaviour. You don't have to crush her spirit - but there is a chance that if you don't help her now, someone else will crush her spirit later.

WOW - what's going on here???? Bellbottom, I absolutely sympathise with you, some of these comments are not just "rude" (to use the word!) but so hurtful.
Reminds me of some unexpected culture clashes I have had since I got my baby (now nearly 2). Have moved here from Germany with my black african hubby 6 years ago.
What country are you from? As I said, I am not surprised you are not getting sympathy from some British parents while I can totally relate to you... so must be cultural...
OF COURSE you see your child through rosy glasses, what sort of mother would you be otherwise?!

Anyway - the only comment I am totally with is that your DD BF's parents might have been (and understandably so) overly sensitive as it was their son's birthday and his time to shine. Please, please don't let this incident (and the verbal exchange about it) ruin your friendship. Just try to move on from it and apologise again, say that you now understand where they were coming from but on the other hand that there is nothing you could have done about it at the time and that you feel bad about it. If they are your friends I am sure they don't actually want you to be troubled by it, would they?

My colleagues often tell me toung in cheek that I am rather "direct" (and bordering at insensitive at times), and I guess that is what we all need to learn and got to teach our kids in order to have a chance at somehow fitting in and not constantly step on people's toes. But children do! There are endless threads about how hilariously funny but at the same time soooo embarrassing children can be - especially those being toilet trained or those, like your daughter, who are learning to express their opinions.

So, if you can, take a breather, don't take everyone so seriously, take note of the nice comments you got, be proud of your daughter, and, well, look forward to the next opportunity to try and explain to her what 'tact' means (by no means beat her up for being spontaneous!!!!!).

It would be lovely to hear again from you X