Is all smacking unacceptable?

[Bekki]

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

doormat, nothing to add really but just that you sound like a lovely, committed mum - those of us with younger children probably don't understand how hard it is with older kids. I feel mean now for coming on so strong about smacking.

doormat, I'll try to get something of of my son this weekend and tell you what he says next week. I'll do my best, but it might not be that illuminating, so don't hold your breath

tigermoth-thanx all the ideas have been great thankyou all

enid thanx never feel mean about your views as they are yours.

Good luck Doormat! If anyone can sort him out, it's you.

Hi doormat, well I had a chat with ds and he said the thing that made him behave better at school was discipline - but not the actions of his teacher or I. The ultimate deterrant was discipline from the headmaster. The headmaster backed up the teachers all the time and is an all-seeing, all-knowing type. My son hated having to spend time in 'isolation' wit him. This meant having to sit alone and do his work all day in the headmaster's office, or just outside. He grew to dread being bought to the headmaster's attention. Yet the headmaster is not a fearsome person - my son says he is very fair and he will happily go and talk to him after school in the playground.

Secondly, my son hated another form of discipline: humiliation in front of his classmates. I admit the liberal in me finds this very hard to swallow too. One morning, for instance, my son had been fiddling with his pencil sharpener incessently so a teaching assistant took him to every class in the school and asked a child in each to show my ds how to sharpen a pencil, right from the reception year to year 6. I think humilitaing children like this is old fashioned, not at all PC and almost emough to make me want to complain to the school. If my child was special needs and this type of situation happened I would be up in arms. Yet, my son used to arrive back home after these humiliating incidents not that upset, not massively traumatised anyway and accepted the punishment. I guess he saw other children punished in the same way so knew the score - and ultimately, it deterred him from getting into trouble.

He liked the behaviour book too, especially the fact that he could earn rewards for being good. Although it lead to discipline from his teacher and I, he said it wasn't what we did, it was the headmaster who made the difference.

Hope that helps!

Wow. That humiliation-thing they do sounds pretty Victorian to me. My DD is still very young, but hearing all about these forms of discipline makes me think I am in a Dickens novel sometimes....

I think it's pretty common practice to have some form of 'isolation' strategy in school, ie working outside the head's office. I don't know how common it is to humiliate a child in front of other classmates as punishment. Incidently, I use the work 'humiliate' because that's what it sounds like to me. My son doesn't refer to it as 'humiliation' though. I know older children often have to go and sit in the reception class ( or any other class) if they have behaved too childishly. Is this 'humilition' or 'isolation' though? I guess from there it's an easy step to get a younger child to show an older one how to sharpen a pencil...

I too would be interested to know if this sort of practice is common in other schools.

Haven't read through all the thread but learnt a new technique at the weekend which some of you might find of interest.
I asked my 13 year old ds to go out and help my DH pick up leaves in the garden for 30 minutes. He said 'no'. I actually offered him pocket money in return but he still refused. I then told him I was no longer asking him, I was telling him. He still said 'no'. I then told him he would not be allowed on the computer for a week - reply 'I don't care'. I confiscated his mobile phone (got that last month for his birthday) and then said I was cancelling his Lord of the ring magazines. Still defiant. I then realised I had no other threats and was pretty close to smacking him out of frustration.
However, I then phoned my sister about something else and she gave me a solution that would save face and preveny smacking ( have to say I have not smacked any of them for a very long time, honest). She said to give him the option of earning the things I had penalised him with back.
Find out what he WAS prepared to do in return for his belongings, but not to give everything back at once. Also you have to be prepared to carry the threat through if you are going to do that. Anyway, after discussion with his dad he agreed to hoover the stairs, and rooms upstairs and downstairs. He earned back his phone and using the computer. He also actually broke down crying telling DH that his brothers were being horrible to him and that was why he was in a bad mood and wouldn't do anything for me. In the end, his mood changed dramatically and he ended up offering to help with other things. The negotiation with children can be exhausting at times but worth it if it works. Had I smacked him he wouldn't have spoken about family issues that were upsetting him.

That's interesting and useful Mears. And I think it ties in with the child psychologist who recommended that instead of saying 'why did you do that?" you should say 'How did you feel when you did that?" not saying that a 13-year-old would necessarily answer either question, but it does go to show that there are often completely odd reasons for bad behaviour. I do also think sticks are no good without carrots and will bear that in mind for possible future use!

Patience of a saint Mears! I would have to be on drugs to have stayed calm under such provocation.
It does get impossible to smack though when your kids get to be bigger and stronger than you. My 14yr old is almost 6ft and drives me bananas.
Daren't smack him but financial bribery seems to be curbing his behaviour quite well.

I like that idea of earning things back. I have seen how bitter and dead ended the argument gets if I tell my son to do something and he refuses point blank. As you say, there is only so much you can take away. So far I can usually get him round before we run out of things to take away, but then he's 9, not 14 years old.

However, I do know one thing, it's not good to paint him into a corner, so to speak. If he really won't do one thing, giving him no choice but to say 'no I won't do that' and so dig himself deeper in trouble is not very positive or good for family harmony. My MIL gave me a good tip years ago, one that's similar to your friends' mears: Always include a get out clause, another option that ds is more happy with and one that is OK with me. It works! Now I can add on to it the earning back your confiscated items tactic too. Not always possible on the spur of the moment and sometimes there is no alternative route back into parnetal good books, but lots of times it's a great strategy.

Yes, batters, I agree re the devastating effect this could have on some children. I was shocked when my son first told me and was all ready to go into the school all guns blazing. I can only hope the school has got the measure of my son. I have told him dh and I will always fight his corner if he feels unjustly treated or upset. Once we did take up a similar incident via a a note in my son's behaviour book.

I try to act on my son's reaction to school discipline, not my own, since I am not there and am not the one being discliplined. I believe that my son at 9 years is able to decide for himself whether he would like us to intervene or not. He keeps telling me how happy he is at the school so I can only hope these humiliating incidents didn't scar him. At least they don't seem to happen now.

It's funny what we consider acceptable forms of punishment. Although I would smack (generally in private) I would never use public humiliation as a form of punishment. And if I found that my ds's school was treating him the way Tigermoth's ds is getting treated, I'd take him out on the spot. In my opinion, if a child is fidgeting in class there is something wrong with the class, not the child. Not all kids have a long attention span. And I don't consider fidgeting to be naughty...it's just a symptom of boredom, excess energy, too tight underwear...etc.

I agree fidgeting is not naughty some children can't keep still, I would blame the school.

Tigemoth thanx for the message, humiliation wouldnt work with ds I think it would make him worse. So far so good this past week we have not had one phonecall YIPPEEE. So hopefully things are improving, fingers and toes crossed (oh and legs coz I want no more kids)Glad your son is back on track and behaving, maybe it is one of those funny stages boys go through.

I would like to thank everyone for their kind messages, you have all been great

doormat, glad your son is having an OK time at school. I do think bad behaviour goes in phases and no one, teacher, child or parent can really say with 100 accuracy what is the cause and effect.

Naayie and sofiaamis, I do think incessent fidgiting can be naughty sometimes, at least with older children. I have certaily seen my son fidgit with pencils, sharpeners etc defiantly on occasion at home ie when he's procrastinating because he does not want to do his homework. And this is not because he can't do it, or that he is too tired to do it, or has an unusually short attention span, or it hasn't been agreed in advance - it is simply because he is being lazy
If that situation happens at school I think it deserves punishment.

sofiaAmes, I know written down here the schools's occaiaional hummialition tactics look a bit shocking. My dh and I were on the point of asking to see the teacher about this. I think if my son had not settled in so well, liked his teachers so much and was so happy there, it would have crossed my mind to move him. But I know he is a confident, outgoing sort of person who tends to to brush off scoldings from teachers. He doesn't take school things too seriously. If he was a different type of child, I presume (and hope) the school would have used different tactics on him.

I know, from his point of view, the worst thing would be another school move. He is living the reality, I am not. A case of sacrificing my own liberal ideals in the interests of my son, I guess.

My mum tells me a story which relates to 'humiliation at school' backfiring - I remember it sketchily but was very young.

When in infants school, teacher was handing out new pencils. She didn't give one to me. I asked why, and she replied that I wasn't getting a new one because I chewed the end of my existing one. I then snapped my existing pencil in half and said 'now do I get a new one?'. Teacher then sent me to stand outside the classroom as punishment. Whilst standing outside I felt humiliated because some people were milling past, and knew that I had been sent out in disgrace. Therefore I thought bugger this for a game of soldiers and decided to up and go, and walked the 15 minutes home, crossing 2 busy roads en route. I was 5 years old.

Mum was definitely shocked when I unexpectedly appeared and wanted to lynch the teacher!

It's illegal in Scotland so no not acceptable.

Zombie thread!