Is all smacking unacceptable?

[Bekki]

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

I have 'smacked' (if you can call it that!) ds on the back of his hand a few times. Especially if he is touching something he has been told 20 times NOT to touch!

I was smacked as a child and I don't really see the usefulness of it. It didn't stop me misbehaving.... but I'm not anti-smacking.

Handlemecarefully, did you try putting your DD on the floor when she slapped you? Find the idea of smacking a baby particularly disturbing.

Should say that I don't agree with smacking, have never felt the urge etc and i'm not a patient person and my DD is not unnaturally well-behaved. I can see the difference between what someone like bloss does and the mu who slapped her toddler round the head this morning on the bus because he was whining. Just makes me very uncomfortable though, especially with babies.

Yes, I think all smacking is unacceptable and I have never smacked my children and never will.

I haven't read all of this thread but I this smacking is acceptable. DD is a little young at the moment but when she's older if she needs a smack on her bottom then she'll get one.

beetroot I dont blame you for sacking the nanny, I would do the same if it was me (and if I had a nanny).
I cant imagine why someone would want to smack some-one elses child, I would never do that.

Doormat - I would NEVER do that, but I've wanted to on the bus or train a few times!

I found it has helped me so much to handle ds to realise how little conception he has of how his actions affect others - he simply was incapable of that sort of sophisticated empathy. He went through a biting stage but came out of it quickly without physical punishment - I used to put him out of the room for a few minutes and shut the door on him, which he hated. Or just put him down and walk away with no eye contact, which he also hated. Very effective, I promise. Any nice genes in my kids come from my husband, I'm sure. They are both such laid-back, easy children and very alike in personality, despite being half siblings.

handlemecarefully- I frequently get punched and slapped in the face by a very angry ds1 (he's 4 so he hurts like hell tbh). If he hurts me it makes me see red so I put him down and walk away. I can't leave him when he's like this as he is generally beating the crap out of himself as well. So I then go and try to defuse him. i know your situation is different but just putting a child down and refusing to play can work wonders.

M2T something that can really work is rather than say "Don't touch x" say something positive instead- eg come away, or in the case of ds2 this morning rather than saying don't get any more raisins, I said "put the raisins back in the cupboard". This is particularly useful for very young children who learn postive language first- so if you say "don't touch granny's teapot" all they'll process is "touch granny's teapot".

Once you get into the habit- it comes easily. Like aloha I used the out of the door trick with ds1 for a number of years- it successfully stopped biting and hitting a baby brother within a day. It doesn't work now- but then he's 4 and I guess most people will have access to more strategies by age 4.

Message withdrawn

M2T agree with Jimjams post about dont touch X as it is futile.It is like waving a red rag to a bull as the items then become a goal IYKWIM.

I find with my 2 yo a firm NO and then walk out the room works most of the time. I have put him to bed a couple of times, but he goes to the top of the stairs and whines.I ask him if he going to be a good boy he replies yes and then he can come down.

beetroot I second that shout teenagers aarrgghh.

I should also add that I have to have a rule to myself not to smack my children; I'm a short-tempered person and I know I could all too easily lash out at them if I didn't have an absolute embargo on it.

Hi motherinferior

I'd be really interested to know how you manage to keep your cool and not smack. Anyone who has read the other smacking thread, will know that I am desperately trying to stop myself lashing out at my children.

I was surprised to see that some of the mumsnetters who have given me the most advice and support are so anti smacking. I think they are great for offering me help, when they could so easily be condemning me. Thank you.

Can I firstly say how nice it is that everybody has aired their views without one arguement!

I have read everyones messages and I'm surprised that I can see everyones point of view on controlled smacking. I wish I didn't have to smack my ds, but I also wish that I didn't have to raise my voice to him, bribe him and repeat myself a thousand times to get him to behave. If I wasn't allowed to smack my child then he would be a little horror.

I would be interested to hear how non-smackers coped with extremes of behaviour. For example what would you have done in my situation a few days ago- 3 year old ds (size of a 6-7 yr old) threw himself onto the floor of a bus because I told him that we had to sit at the front with the pram. He starts a major tantrum crying, hitting and kicking. An elderly lady gets the full force of one of his unintentional kicks and looks very scared. I am unable to pick him up as the bus is moving and he weighs the same as a 6 yr old. What would you do in that situation? BTW, I gave him a good, hard smack on the back of his legs and he stopped immediatley, and after a minute or two got up, sat down and apologised to the lady. If there was a realistic alternative to smacking that would be useful even with extreme bad behaviour I would definatley use it. At the moment I beleive that all non-smacking parents have naturally angelic, calm children and so therefore have never needed to smack.

Bekki- my ds1 is autistic- extremes of behaviour are normal for us. In fact I would say that the strength of tantrum you describe happens often (last happened on Monday at the zoo becuase he had to queue). He has tantrums where he hits himself daily. In fact that is one occasion where I do use the word no- as in "no hitting" I also hold his hand if he carries on or at least put my hand between his and his chin. Generally I stay calm and repeat whatever I want him to do over and over again. So for example at the zoo I marched him off and said calm down repeatedly, told him to sit on benches (which he likes to do). And kept going with this for half an hour until I managed to track down dh so I could distract him with sme PECS practice- involves choccy buttons.

He's 4- and big for his age- and very strong- he has pulled me over a few times. But there is no point smacking him at all as he wouldn't understand. Also he may then start smacking himself and I would be absolutely unable to explain why it was unacceptable. We have had to find other ways of dealing with it because of his autism- but we've done that round extremes of behaviour.

BM, I have a similar philosophy to motherinferior, it's just something I do not do - I know I wouldn't enjoy my day or feel comfortable with myself if I did, so I make it an unbreakable rule that I don't. It does help to think, this far but no further, I think. I can have an absolutely explosive temper, but manage to control it with my son. I used to look after other people's children, and with them there was no question of hitting or even of shouting so it made me realise there are other ways if there have to be. The children I looked after did NOT always behave well, but the tactics of ignoring bad behaviour and praising good worked stunningly well, IME. It gave me confidence to do it with my own son. Of course, other people's children don't get to you in the way your own do, but that's also a good lesson, that it's not what they do, but the way it affects you that is the trigger, therefore you are the 'problem' not them. I used to look after some boys who literally threw furniture at each other the first time I had them on their own. I decided they'd probably done this before, weren't actually going to kill each other, so sat in the corner and started quietly putting together a very expensive, complicated lego space station that was still in its box because they didn't know where to start and their parents didn't help them. Within ten minutes (I'm not joking) the mayhem had subsided and they sidled up to see what I was doing. we ended up having some really lovely times. And believe me, there's nothing magical about me, personally.

I did shout sometimes though - once when I looked over at some of the kids playing crazy golf and noticed one of them had his metal club over his head, ready to bring it down with a resounding crack on his sister's head! "Put the club DOWN!!!" seemed to work. A hair raising moment, though.

Yes but surely the shouting only works because they have a fear of what might happen otherwise. If he thought that you weren't going to punish him in some way then he would have ignored you. My ds is alot easier to control now and can (60% of the time) be talked out of bad behaviour, but only because he has been smacked. How do you still have power over children without smacking? Surely they must walk all over you. If I had ignored ds on the bus and left him to kick elderly people and endanger himself would that have been more acceptable than smacking him?

Sorry that sounds very aggressive and rhetorical when I read it back but they are genuine questions, honest!

Nope. He absolutely knew I wouldn't smack him. He knew he was doing wrong I think, and the shout was enough to shock him. Of course,I also jumped up took away the club told him he wasn't to do that and stopped him playing and made him sit on the bench next to me while everyone else finished their game. It worked perfectly well. And no, my stepdaughter and my son don't 'walk all over me' - in fact they are beautifully behaved. We recently had a second birthday for my son, and my stepdaughter made all the sandwiches, insisted on walking all the guests to the door to say goodbye and was the hostess with the mostest all round. I just don't understand why you think children are such untamed monsters. I have never found them so - other people's or my own and I have worked on playschemes on rough estates, grew up on a council estate, helped out in a local authority children's home and did nannying when very much younger. I never, ever met a child I even considered smacking. I wouldn't dream of smacking ds, and dd, well, she'd fall down dead with shock, I think, if you even suggested it My philosophy, which I learned from my dh, incidentally, though it was already my style, is to agree to any reasonable request. Never, ever say no without good reason, but if something is impossible, just carry on. Never get into the talk, persuade, argue, smack cycle iykwim. I honestly don't want 'power' over my children. I want to live with them in a pleasant, happy cooperative way. Tonight my ds wanted chocolate instead of plain milk. As it was bedtime I decided against it. He cried but that didn't make me angry or upset. I said I understood what he wanted , but he couldn't have it last thing at night. NO argument, no anger. I know I say my kids are nice, and they are, and anyway I love them so maybe see them through rose tinted glasses, but not all kids I have dealt with were 'easy' but I never smacked any of them and they never 'walked all over me'. I don't really know what that means, TBH. Do I do things to please them? Yes. Do I allow them to choose outings, what they want to eat etc? Yes. Do I feel oppressed by this or feel it is ruining my life or anything? No. In your case, I think I would have talked to my son, picked him up, apologised briefly to the old lady, and held him next to me on the seat and ignored any fuss or noise. I do believe - and I know some people will see this as criticism, but it isn't intended as such - that children learn from their emotional environment. I treat my ds and my stepdaughter as gently as I would like to be treated myself if I were their age. I am pretty tolerant of a lot of things, have almost no rules, but I really, honestly thing that both children are extremely nice to be around.

Aloha, I just love your last post, you put into words my feelings exactly. Thank you.

i would have done the same as Aloha on the bus. Bekki- I can't reason with my son because he can't talk and doesn't understand much language. This is why smacking would be so disasterous- I have absolutely no way of explaining to him that he can't smack people smaller than himself but I can. He learns purely by what he sees, and works out for himself, he does not learn by discussion.

He did try to pull a 90 year old off some stairs once (he doesn't like people standing on stairs as they spoil the view). I held him back said "no pulling" and luckily the lady moved. If he'd been smacked he would have had absolutely no idea why (stair obsessions are strong.

DS has what others would describe as challenging behaviour often (although to be honest he's pussycat compared to lots of autistic kids). He does however know that when I say "uh huh huh" woth a shake of the head I mean "no" and he will stop. I think he's learned that becuase battles are picked carefully, but when I say no I mean it.

Bekki, my children are not angelic and I wouldn't want them to be either. Sounds boring... I know exactly the situation you describe about the tantrum on the bus and I sympthatise. Public transport seems to be a favourite place for major tantrums My main nightmare (still a nightmare) is flying with ds, and we fly about once a month. If anyone's ever been on the same plane as my children, I apologise!

I have never made a great fuss over my children's tantrums. I have pretty much left them to it, even if it means lying screaming and kicking in the middle of Sainsbury's . Of course I make sure they don't hurt others or themselves, but I think this is always possible without smacking. For me, this has really worked. My ds is now 26 months and we are over the main tantrum stage. The really difficult stage (when they are so strong and heavy you struggle to contain them) passed in a matter of months. DS now has a special corner in the house where he goes to have his tantrums. It's quite funny because I have never been one for a "naughty chair" or "naughty corner", but he seems to have found one himself. When he feels a tantrum coming on in the house, he runs to his little corner and blows off steam. Sometimes he comes back to us by himself, but if doesn't manage to control his tantrum, we go to get him. We pretend not to notice it at all and when he comes back in, we act completely normal.

I have smacked my children when they were younger. Sometimes I found it was the only way to get them to tow the line. I have not smacked for years though but I do threaten it when need be. I'll crawl away now