Is all smacking unacceptable?

[Bekki]

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

Robinw,

I am confused by your post. What is your point?

I find it really strange that Japanse children lack discipline? Is it only when they are really young? Their school system and the rest of their lives are certainly not lacking in discipline.....
Good point about Scandinavia. Smacking and any form of physical punishment is illegal and the children aren't more badly behaved than here in Britain. As I have said before on MN; the British have got quite a bad reputation for their smacking. Many of my friends are mortified when they have witnessed children being smacked in public like the parents think it's natural. I am not saying that no Swedish child is ever smacked. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors? Whenever I see a parent smacking a child in public, I feel like walking straight over and smacking the parent. I have to admit that I don't think very highly of parents who smack. I think they must be a bit "simple" and "uneducated" for not managing their children's temper in a better way.

Since smacking was made illegal in Sweden - with the accompanying education about alternative ways to deal with your children - only about five children, I think, have been recorded as killed by their parents: it's that embargo on violence towards children again. I do not have comparable UK figures here at the moment (and should be doing other work) but I know it's much, much higher.

I'm not sure that was your intention Fairymum but I had to have a bit of a giggle when you said that in your view parents who smack are simple and uneducated. I am kicking myself for not going on with my education to obtain a PHD and I am mortally ashamed of my lowly masters degree!

Handlemecarefully, I agree it was clumsily put. I don't think having a university degree decides weather you are a good parent or not. Of course I don't think that. But I do think it looks quite common when I see parents who smack their kids. I can't put it better than that. I am afraid I have my feet so firmly stuck on the anti-smacking side that I would support legislation similar to what we have in Sweden. I see absolutely no good reason why smacking should be part of a child's upbriging. I think smacking is disrespectful and vulgar. I was brought up in a country where most people would agree with my view. Where people come back from holiday and talk about how they have seen mums shouting and smacking their kids in public and it shocks us! I think the argument that smacking is a private thing and "it works for me" is bizzarre. Wife-smacking isn't a private thing. A wife can escape a violent relationship. A toddler can't and should be protected from it no matter how "well-menaing" the smacking is.

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IME Scandanavia isn't that thoughtless and open-minded, Bloss; it's just the same as everywhere else. It does have a much more forward thinking legilslature that is willing to challenge public opinion though. I watched a really good documentary about the introduction of the smacking ban in Sweden. At the time the vast majority of the population were convinced that physical punishment was ok and necessary to bring up decently behaved kids etc..However, before the ban was introduced there were a lot of public awareness programmes, debates on TV etc, the govt funded the necessary classes, literature etc. Now, as Fairymum has shown, public opinion has caught up.

I also understand her comments about smacking being common and the response of someone who is poorly educated. Smacking in the supermarket does look dreadful and it is about the parent's public loss of self-control, which is common. It is ill-educated as the parent has often not considered other options or been prepared to put in the effort that non-smacking responses to bad behaviour often require. Academic education has no bearing on parental abilities.
Just as Bloss is not interested in the opinion of non-smackers so I will never be convinced that it is ever necessary. I always cringe when I see some child being smacked, however dreadful the behaviour or cool and controlled the parent.

FWIW I have a PhD in Psychology (learning and motivation), as does DH, and while he doesn't have my emotional response to smacking, he has come to the same conclusion from the work he does with animals; physical punishment is not necessary or effective (long-term) in changing behaviour.

It has nothing to do with my aestetic sense that I am against smacking, and me running around on the beach nakes does not physically hurt anyone. You could argue that it could challenge your aestetic sense though
With simple and uneducated, I don't necessarily mean university -educated. I am sure you can be a perfectly good parent and not be educated at all. However, I do think it useful to read parenting books. Of course there is no one right way of parenting, but most books on parenting written today do advise against smacking and tries to explain WHY children behave the way they do. My dh was smacked as a child by his parents. His parents are good loving parents, but with discussion I have had with my MIL in the past I know that she is not very well-read and very stuck in the past. She believes in showing the child "who is the boss" and also having "control" of the child. Both these concepts are foreign to me.
Yes, I am judging people who smack. I don't think they are bad parents. I think they are often well-meaning, but I think they are misguided and wrong. There are laws against smacking your spouse. Why shouldn't there be laws against smacking your child ?

I have to admit being hugely impressed with a tv series about a dog trainer who worked with difficult, out of control, often violent dogs and puppies. She NEVER used physical chastisement or pain, but was extremely consistent, rewarded good behaviour and ostentatiously ignored bad and used a 'naughty step' type approach of putting the dog out of the room if it was getting out of hand etc etc. The results were like miracles! I do think behaviour modification, esp of young children, has a lot in common with dog training, I really do. And I agree that I feel upset (sometimes desperately upset and shaky) when I see smacking - esp as what I so often see is angry slapping and pulling of very small children in the street by parents that I would describe as plain nasty, but I also feel upset when I see someone hitting their dog, for similar reasons. I think if we can manage big dogs without physical punishment, little children can also be managed without it. I don't think generalisations about other people and their motives is particularly helpful, personally, and speaking as someone who wasn't very nice to ds this morning (woken up at 5am again) I certainly am not setting myself up as St Mummy, but I think other methods do work, and for many of us, make us feel happier and more at ease with ourselves and our children.

Aloha,

You are so right re generalisations about other people and their motives not being helpful. Such generalisations are more likely to make people defensive and more entrenched in their views, rather than open to considering alternatives (at least - thats the effect it has on me)

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I have read the conversation with interest, and can state that I come from a smacking family where a belt or shoe were used to discipline me and my siblings.

To pick up on some of the earlier threads you may be intereted to learn that I went to public school and have 2 university degrees and my parents were relatively well-read.

I now have 2 children of my own, had them in my early 30s having done the travel, got the home and the high flying career etc etc. My DS5 is about as hyperactive and mischevious as I can handle, and to read the TALK pages at times only serves to save my sanity - I am not alone!(although i must confess that i have still meet the parents and/or kids of chldren who are as badly behaved in private or public as my own DS).

Anyhow, all I know now is that smacking is learned behaviour. Despite my so called education, when my children first came along, I did not know how to 'discipline' them without smacking, (and I had read the parenting books!)and I had to make a concerted effort not to smack. Likewise, my DH came from a family that shouts what to my mind is wicked abuse at each other. Needless to say, I now think that that my DH shouts too much at our children in response to his upbringing.

Thankfuly we have both realised our 'weaknesses' and now make optimal efforts to adjust our behaviour and remind each other when we feel that the other is lapsing into old habits. As a tip, I started by not smacking for a day, followed by a few days followed by a week etc and so now I seldom have to resort to smacking. DS no 2 is now 3 and I have never smacked him, but it is true that he is of a much clamer and gentler disposition.

I hope that this will be of some help to both the smackers and anti-smackeers.

PS I have a very loving relationship with my parents, as I always have had!

bloss totally agree with the thread turning into a "tantrum throwing toddler at the supermarket". I feel that smacking a toddler is unacceptable.

fairymum as for the parenting books sorry but if everything was so clear cut in them why are we members of mumsnet here asking for advice on some issue or another.
There is only so much we can learn from books.

Doormat, of course you cannot learn everything from parenting books. That's why I am here on Mumsnet to teach you all No seriously though, I think most childcare experts these days agree that smacking is not constructive and often harmful. I bought a book after Aloha recommended it here on Mumsnet called "The social toddler" and it's brilliant! I think a lot of parents should read it and it would help them redefine "naughty" behaviour in toddlers to completely normal behaviour.

Fwiw, the most shameful episode I have had with my dd did not involve smacking. It involved me shouting and screaming at her (because I had been ground down to that point). The look on her face was pure terror and she collapsed into hysterical crying. I was deeply ashamed and mortified, and vowed never to loose control like that again. I was really disgusted with my behaviour...but I hadn't lifted a finger to her.

Not sure what this adds to the debate - perhaps I am trying to say that the smacks that I have reluctantly given her (which currently stand at less than the number of fingers on one hand) when conscious and aware of what I am doing, seem pretty innocuous when compared to that verbal outburst.

Am now bracing myself for a barrage of criticism.

Fairymum LOLbut this seems to be a toddler smacking thread.
What about an older child that knows right from wrong??
When you have continually tried to reason,sent to bed, grounded, taken there hobbies away (ie football club, playstation etc)all at the same time and they still behave inappropriately what are you supposed to do????

I really don't believe in smacking.

I smacked dd1 once when she was strangling the cat and wouldn't let go - I smacked her hard on the bottom after desperately trying to prise her hands off the poor cat (shouldn't really but - ). I found it utterly traumatic (for me).

If I smacked her regularly I would actually seek help for myself. Sorry, but I think its utterly wrong. And...I don't want to alienate people as there are lots of people on here who I respect a lot...but I find when people say they cuddle after a smack it makes my flesh creep. Sorry, but there you go.

Sorry if this got covered before but it's a very long thread and I just don't have time to read thru it all --
I just wondered if those of you who smack find that the child you smack tends to smack the other children. Because I know my son treats his baby sister exactly the way we treat him. And DD scolds her dolly the exact same way DH tends to shout at DS. I mean, it's pure learnt behaviour by example. If your older child does tend to discipline the other children by smacking, how do you cope with that?

Nice to know I'm so well thought of here. Common, vulgar, disrespectful, ill educated to name but a few. I guess you think that a bit of verbal bashing is in order as I've admitted that I smack my kids.

I think a lot of my views about smacking come from my parents. Myself & my sister were quite regularly wholloped as children and older. I mean with slippers, hairbrushes....I thought it was normal until I got older. My mum was never the cuddleist mum - but I think she loves me.I have an okay relationship with them now, though not the warmest I must admit.

I think my mum still thinks I should be firmer with my 3 yr old. My grandad when I visit him, actively encourages me to "gie him a belt" - he is Scottish. I could hate him for this, but hes very old, and its all he knows. He was one of 13 and I think was probably hit as well. I've had bust ups in the past with my mum re bringing up my kids (she can sometimes use racist language in front of them and I asked her to stop which drove her wild). My mum is not a ogre by the way - she is a lovely granny in most ways!!

I vowed I would never let my children feel the way I felt after being hit. I'm managing this mostly, but I think I have failed on about 3 occassions and feel utterly hopeless about it. I haven't for a good while now and hope I never will again, but I think you have to remember what you've been brought up with. Not in any way an excuse, just, I don't know, another view.

Oh boy,

I always try to keep my cool, but I'm becoming really irritated by people promulgating their own personal views and beliefs as some incontestable 'truth'. Obviously people are entitled to their own views and naturally those differ, but what I object to is when they label others who disagree with their perspective as 'wrong' or 'bad'. Who made you the guardian of all morality?

badmum1

Just ignore it! - its so not worth it

TBH Zebra my children argue and name call amongst themselves all the time but they never smack eachother.

Badmum1 - I don't think you are any of those things or a badmum. I have smacked my kids as well as I've just said. God, its not an argument for doing it but generations and generations have used physical punishment and I'm sure all of them weren't uneducated, common or vulgar.

Its a pure last resort, we all know we shouldn't do it, but unfortunately we do very occassionally. If its any consolation, I have a close group of friends with kids all the same age and I'd say all of them have smacked at some time. (I'm talking about a pure reaction, slap on the legs here,not mega hitting)

couldnt of put it better lazyeye.
I have smacked some of my children badmum.