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Is all smacking unacceptable?

221 replies

Bekki · 29/10/2003 17:03

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

OP posts:
Jimjams · 03/11/2003 22:40

Goodness I hope the "smackers" (scuse the term) didn't think I was being self righteous by saying I speak to my child calmly while I'm dragging him back to the buggy. It was more a reference to the people in the supermarket gawping with their chins on the ground and tutting about bad parenting. What I meant was that if they had looked for more than 5 seconds before tut tutting they may have realised it wasn't a normal situation, and wasn't a normal child. And that it certainly wasn't the "child abuse" mentioned by earlier posters. I balk at buying a big pair of child sized reins for him. You can get them, but somehow I prefer not to.

I do agree with aloha about the constant supervision. I had to do that for quite a while with ds1, when ds2 was born.

Enid · 03/11/2003 23:06

Wow Bekki, you just do need to supervise them constantly, dd1 tried to squash dd2 on many occasions after dd2 was born, I could NEVER leave them alone together, but why should I have? Why on earth should I have expected dd1 (nearly 3 at the time) to be responsible? Of course your ds is going to be jealous. Smacking him isn't going to make it better. Carry ds2 around with you everywhere and be kind to ds1 - sorry, but IMO thats the only way to get through it.

tigermoth · 03/11/2003 23:16

Just want to add something to the debate about how your parents smacking you can affect you in adulthood. Both my dh and I were smacked as children. In my case my mum very, very occasionally (5 or 6 times?) chased me round the room with a mason pearson pure bristle hairbrush. I guess I was 4 - 8 years old. When she caught me she would smack me once on the arm. It hurt. But by the time this happenend, the adreneline from the chase, the wild look in my mother's eye, the sheer novelty of it all would make me slightly hysterical. I was never frightened. Usually ended up half laughing at her for losing her rag and often by this time she was laughing too. She would always say profuse sorrys afterwards and would let me hit her hand with the hairbrush. That was by far the cringemaking worst bit.

I have absolutely no ill thoughts about my mum slapping me. Nothing to keep me awake at night. She was a gentle, tolerant and caring mum and made me feel totally secure and loved. For this reason I personally cannot see her smacking me as an evil. I have smacked my son occasionally. He isn't traumatised, honestly take my word on this. I don't think smacking is usaully the most effective form of discipline but hey, so what? It is an absolute non issue with me personally as long as the parent/ child relationship is good and the smacking isn't brutal and routine.

But take my husband. He too was smacked by his father. I wasn't there, I can't say what happened. The beatings, though occasional have left him full of anger at his dad and they have never had an easy relationship. The last time my husband was beaten up he was 16 years old. His father (a good man I hasten to add, not a brute) refuses to remember it. My husband swears it happened. This failure to acknowledge the past eats him up still. He has gone out of his way to be a loving dad to his sons, cuddles them a lot and tries to be as different from his dad as he can be. But he has smacked our son occasionally. He says he feels guilty afterwards. That's his cross to bear.

My two sons respond differently to different forms of discipline. I see this all the time. I try to adjust my style accordingly. My 4 year old can feel totally devistated by a light slap and will run away howling. Some of that is for dramatic effect, some of it is not. I am not sure where one ends and the other begins. I do know he is someone who should never be slapped. My older son at that age would have ignored it, carried on being naughty or slapped me back.

So IME, going on the people I know best, slapping, whether you are the doer or the done to, causes very different emotions.

Slapping is wrong - much too simple a statement in my opinion.

SofiaAmes · 03/11/2003 23:20

aloha, a little off the subject of smacking...but why not tape your favorite rubbish program and watch it after your kids are in bed. I too am addicted to rubbish tv (can't drink the wine as i'm allergic) and have had to make a conscious effort since having children to find other ways of indulging my only remaining vice without sacrificing the family dinner which I think is one of the most important elements in healthy family life.

Jimjams, my post was not aimed in any way at you. I am in constant awe of how you manage to always sound so together and calm when you clearly have an extremely difficult life. I don't think I wouldn't have risen to the occasion as wonderfully as you have. And I find myself being much more tolerant (and less ignorant) when I'm out and I see a difficult child ....I don't always assume that it's bad parenting nowadays and instead allow for the possibility that it's an autistic child.

bloss · 04/11/2003 03:46

Message withdrawn

Bekki · 04/11/2003 07:20

I think that it is hard to judge unless you have seen the follow-up to the smack. But yes cruel comments to children is intolerable since children believe everything that you say.

I think some people may have got the wrong impression, I don't beat my child. Ds1 is a star, he is a great help to me and is very thoughtful towards others. I understand that his occasional jabs at his brother are somewhat out of his emotional control and I would never smack him because of it. I only smack when ds1 is out of control, disrespecting adults or endangering himself.

OP posts:
Bekki · 04/11/2003 07:23

Thanks Aloha I will try my best to keep all of that in mind and have re-read your previous posts. I'll let you know how we get on.

OP posts:
Jimjams · 04/11/2003 08:13

No-one offended me- I was worried that I had offended someone here by sounding a bit smug- and oh I'm so in control (when usually I'm gritting my teeth and muttering to myself )

Seem to have a had a few supermarket episodes recently......

doormat · 04/11/2003 08:33

No offence to anyone here but it seems to me this thread is about toddlers in the supermarket. I think we all agree that smacking in that scenario is wrong but what about smacking as a form of discipline to older children who are naughty.

handlemecarefully · 04/11/2003 08:43

Just to say jimjams, I didn't think you sounded smug - your posts were carefully put.

Tigermoth, I wish I could have written your post -it encapsulates what I think exactly.

lazyeye · 04/11/2003 08:54

Tigermoth, just to say I agree with much of what you say as well and in common with you dh's dad - my mum also has denied hitting us and in particular one episode where she dragged my sister across the room by her hair!!!! I must again add, my mum is not a monster. I have come to think through other things that she was very very depressed..........

marialuisa · 04/11/2003 09:11

Doormat, i think I tend to focus on toddlers being smacked because that is what I see most of, gnerally seems to be considered ok and what I, personally find unnecessary and distressing. As i've mentioned I work with "difficult" older kids, aged 7 upwards. TBH it amazes me that many of the parents think that the best way to deal with their sons' (because i've only dealt with 1 girl in 6 months) bad, usually violent behaviour is to wallop them. So yesterday, there was a boy who'd broken another boy's nose in a playground fight. His mum said "his dad and me have both given him a good hiding, do you think we should punch him in the face so he knows what it's like?" and that was in all seriousness (as an aside is it so different to pinching babies who pinch etc?). We've found that giving older kids ways to think of the way their behaviour effects others, methods to improve self-control and so on can be effective. Unfortunately they take a lot of time and effort which many of the parents i encounter are not prepared to put in.

Something that troubles me about smacking older kids is that with most of the kids i see you'd really have to hammer them for it to be effective. As someone here mentioned the adrenaline etc dulls their responses.

As for you belting your drunk DD, have to say that it sounds as if she's pretty much a grown-up and would probably have been a lot worse off if she started behaving like that in a club in Birkenhead!!

doormat · 04/11/2003 09:33

marialuisa ROFL dd would of ended up far worse, youre right.

As for the parents behaviour I think that is appalling.
I do the rewarding thing for good behaviour.Send him to bed, ground etc for bad behaviour.(Bad behaviour meaning getting sent home from school for bullying or naughtiness,telling adults they are liars, I did not bring my child up to be like this)He doesnt act like this at home.
Once I was asked to pick him up from school at lunchtime and the Head told me what had happened, he smirked and gave him cheek I warned him to behave which he didnt, he carried on so I clipped him across the earhole and frogmarched him home to bed.I have even had him weeding the garden as a form of punishment when he has been sent home from school as to say to him "if you were good in school you wouldnt have to do this"
I will ground, send to bed etc etc but he will still carry on. He is defiant. IME it is the smack when he has gone too far that will bring him into line (for awhile at least).IYKWIM.

FairyMum · 04/11/2003 10:11

Doormat, I don't believe it is right to smack anyone, so not older kids either. As well as thinking it quite disrespectful and humiliating to the child, I just don't think it's very effective. The arguments for smacking toddlers seems to be that they don't understand the word "no" and you cannot reason with them. You can reason with older children though, so that argument don't seem valid anymore? I think it is really important to teach children and teenagers about consequenses. How they can hurt other people (or themselves) by their action. IMO, smacking does at best teach them that if they repeat the act they will get a smack. I would also imagine that they get immune to a smack and you will have to smack harder? That's pretty dangerous ground to me.....
My children are still small so I haven't encountered all the situations that teenage years bring with them. I really want my children to respect me. I want them to learn from me that you can deal with feelings like anger and frustrations in so many ways which doesn't involve anything physical.
I certainly don't think children who are smacked are better behaved and certainly not outside the home.

aloha · 04/11/2003 10:45

Doormat, this may sound stupid and obvious, but have you asked your son why he behaves so differently at school than at home? I mean, say something like, 'You're such a great kid and I really love you and enjoy being around you but something seems to be going wrong at school, doesn't it?" and seeing what he says - OK, he's a teenager so he might just grunt, but I wonder if you persisted you might get some more out of him. To me it seems so odd that he behaves so much worse at school and it does seem as if the school must be doing something very wrong for this to be happening. I think in general it is good to back up the school, but I would personally feel uneasy about giving him double punishments - he's getting punished at school and then again at home. It also seems - and this isn't meant as a criticism, but more of an observation - that the smacking really isn't working for him as this has been going on for such a long time. What's his view of all this? It sounds such a depressing situation for you all.

doormat · 04/11/2003 11:14

Fairymum I was like you and alot on here, I have never smacked any of my children when they were younger and certainly not when they were toddlers.

I think you also assume that when I smack him it equates to a hard one or several which it does not. He either gets a clip across the earhole or slap on his shoulder.He is not a teenager btw he is 10 next month.As for older children sometimes they will not listen to reason whatsoever.They think they are in the right and become defiant.I have brought my children up to respect me and others and property.i had one incident of disrespect out of my eldest dd. She never done it again.
One incident was he was 6yrs old and threw an egg at the neighbours house window,because his mates were doing it.I sculldragged him to the house and told him to tell the neighbour what he had done and I made him clean it up.

Aloha thanx for the advicehe doesnt get punished at school as they cannot deal with him, that is why I have to go and collect him. I have done all this trying to speak to him and asking him what is wrong etc and what I get out of him is that HE thinks he is being treated unfairly.I agree with him to a point but he takes his bad behaviour at school to the extreme ie bullying,destruction of school property, calling teachers liars.He gets plenty of time-out time at school when he gets in these moods but he carries on.I am looking into sending him to a different school to see if it is the school and not him but at the same time the school knows what he is like and I dont want bad behaviour carrying on at another school and him getting excluded IYKWIM. I also feel sorry for him but I cant let the above behaviour carry on, especially to adults and where he is putting kids at risk from his tantrums.
BTW there is nothing medically wrong with him ie ADAH???sp.

Maybe he will grow out of it, I dont know.He has seen a counsellor and they got nothing out of him.
As a parent what more can I do????

aloha · 04/11/2003 11:25

I don't know, Doormat. It's sounds really difficult. I agree that a new school may well be a good idea - at least it will let him begin with a clean slate. Maybe now he feels he is typecast as a bad lad, so feels he has nothing to lose by living down to his reputation iykwim? Is he keen on the idea of a new school? In what way does he feel unfairly treated? He seems to be hurting himself most of all, which seems sad.
And one other thing, If seems wrong to me that the school insist that you punish him for things you didn't see and weren't there for. I think that puts you in a difficult position, especially if he doesn't behave like this at home. I think the school should handle the sanctions, with your backing if necessary, but not just hand him over to you like that.

FairyMum · 04/11/2003 11:32

Doormat, I was writing generally and not about your situation. I was just answering your question about smacking older kids......I do see that most posters say they don't smack their kids hard, but I can imagine that as the child grows older, you also have to smack harder ?
I don't think it is only about how hard you smack. I think a smack is probably more painful psychologically than physically. I think smacking is humiliating and disrespectful. It's like showing you are the boss and in charge, but without really being in control. In my mind at least, smacking means that you are not really in control or you are not sure how to communicate with your child.

I think a lot of the "smackers" (sorry, I know that sounds quite bad) on this thread say that their children are so naughty and nothing else works. IMO, you either define naughtiness differently from me, or your children really are worse behaved which would kind of suggest that your disciplining techniques don't actually work.

aloha · 04/11/2003 11:32

Bekki, there was one thing I thought of which seemed to help my ds, which was to show I understood his feelings. So if he was yelling because he didn't want to leave the park, I'd say, "I know, you want to stay in the park, don't you? You really like the park because we have fun. And now we have to go home for tea/because it's raining/to see daddy. We'll come again tomorrow. Bye bye park'. No, it didn't alway stop him yelling by any means but it did seem to help him calm down because even if we were doing something he didn't like, at least he wasn't thinking, 'what's the stupid woman doing now? Doesn't she realise I don't want to leave?". I just thought a similar thing for you might be to say something like, 'Do you feel a bit sad because your brother is here to live with us? That's OK. Sometimes we all feel jealous or cross." And then you remove his hands from his little brother's throat (only joking - I bet he's gorgeous with him most of the time) This might be totally inappropriate for your ds, of course. You know him a lot better than I do. And you do sound like a really loving mother.

doormat · 04/11/2003 11:36

Aloha he feels unfairly treated by the fact there are other kids doing similar things, sometimes worse and they dont get sent home like he does but he hasnt understood yet that when the teachers tell the other children off they stop. No only my ds will carry on acting the clown.But at the same time, the school really cant handle him as he is defiant, runs amok or runs away, that is why I am informed. I think the school and I are between the devil and the deep blue sea

aloha · 04/11/2003 11:40

BTW Doormat, I can understand your frustration. My brother had an awful time at school and was expelled more than once from Primary school (which I think is pretty unusual). Looking back he was extremely unhappy about my parents's endless, angry rows (which I think made him very insecure and angry) and he had an undiagnosed dyslexia problem and I think an impulsive behaviour problem which he was born with, neither of which were addressed in those days. This all gave him problems into adulthood. I hope this doesn't sound too depressing, but in my brother's case, the schools were incapable of meeting his needs and punishment really, really didn't help either. His behaviour seemed really 'naughty' and bad, but I think in many ways he was suffering and couldn't explain it. My mum was really in despair and didn't know where to turn, so I do have an idea of how frustrated you must be. I think a school where they are less likely to see him as bad, and more as a problem to be solved would be a lot more helpful to you all. Again this might seem nothing like your situation at all.

doormat · 04/11/2003 11:41

Fairymum what do you define as naughty then???

aloha · 04/11/2003 11:41

My brother also used to run away constantly.

aloha · 04/11/2003 11:44

Doormat, I wonder, what about saying that you can completely see why he thinks he unfairly treated, but asking him if he can a/see any differences between the way he acts and the way the other 'naughty' children act, and b/can he think of any ways he could change to make him have a nicer time at school and not get sent home - I mean really let him brainstorm his own ideas. Sometimes your own solutions are the most effective ones, even if you are only ten.

doormat · 04/11/2003 11:45

Aloha you hit the nail on the head thanx, the school see him as a problem to be solved. His work is excellent and apart from being naughty is a pleasant and lovely child. But when he gets in these moods there is no stopping him.I even thought the other night is it the diet in school that could be triggering his bad behaviour.