Is all smacking unacceptable?

[Bekki]

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

It could be. Maybe worth a try? He sounds a real Jekyll and Hyde character but with a lot of good in him. It seems a shame he is sabotaging all his many good points with these 'moods'. Is there anyone outside the school who could help, or have you already gone down that route? Otherwise, well it doesn't sound as if it could be much worse at a new school.

It could be. Maybe worth a try? He sounds a real Jekyll and Hyde character but with a lot of good in him. It seems a shame he is sabotaging all his many good points with these 'moods'. Is there anyone outside the school who could help, or have you already gone down that route? Otherwise, well it doesn't sound as if it could be much worse at a new school.

aloha done that route too,aarrgghh.I will try the diet thing.

I always try every tactic going with things like that. But they only work the once. We tried the one that you described which worked and I thought that I had cracked it, next week the same reasoning had no effect. The latest one is looking him straight in the eye and telling him exactly what we are going to do - "We are going to leave the slide, open the gate and walk home". This is crazy and you do feel like a nut case saying it but it does seem to help him accept what is going to happen. I doubt it will still be working in a few weeks but his behaviour has improved dramatically over the last 6 months so I'm not too concerned. When I was heavily pregnant I couldn't chase after him or pick him up and so he had to be trusted not to run off or throw tantrums over every little thing. Explaining this to him had an immediate effect and he seemed to enjoy his little bit of responsibility and freedom. Playgroup were very impressed with his behaviour when he returned in September, I'm quite proud of him actually I know how difficult he finds it to keep in control. Thanks largely to this thread I have realised that alot of his behaviour has a root cause which needs to be addressed before discipline is applied. For example yesterday I yelled out when ds1 fell on top of ds2, I forgot all about it until ds1 started behaving like a maniac in the middle of town. I asked him what the matter was and he said he was sad because I had shouted at him. As soon as we had had the talk he started behaving himself.

This morning we had our daily 45 minute walk to playgroup. Its a long walk for a 3 year old but neccessary. Everytime he ignored me I tried desperatley to see it from his point of view and smile sweetly I think I achieved my aim at not telling him off for being annoying. But we were 10 minutes late and I'm emotionally exhausted. I will carry on though dh has just brought him back lets see how it goes. How you do this day in day out I have no idea Aloha.

fairymum btw a "naughty corner" does not work with a nearly 10 yo, neither does ignoring their tantrums.

What discipling techniques do you suggest for a 10 yo ??? that I have not done.

I think Aloha and Fairymum should write a book on the subject. If you do I want 20% :0

doormat- if you have tried everything else then diet is definitely worth a go. When my son was having peanut butter he was an absolute headbanging lunatic (and this was bloody ground organic stupidly exepnsive peanut butter- was trying to increase protein intake). I cannot describe how bad he was. he didn't seem to feel pain and would whack his head about 20 sessions a day on the hardest things he could find (we'd be out and he would literally drop to the floor and start whacking the pavement). He had permanent bruises on his forehead. I stopped the peanut butter and the headbanging stopped within 2 days, so I'd give diet a serious thought. What is he having to eat at school?

Thinking about it, i've realised that I don't tend to think of behaviour as "naughty". I think of behaviour as "socially unacceptable/inappropriate at this time". Sometimes behaviour is annoyoing, e.g. spitting/refusal to get dressed and continuing to be a bouncy frog but as Aloha has said she sees me as the unreasonable one at that point. alternatively she recently painted her arms with nail varnish, she knows she's not allowed things from the cupboard but I'd left the stuff out, so I don't balme her for thinking she'd have a little play. A friend had a similar thing happen with her DD but categorised it as "naughty"....

Nevertheless DH and I expect very high standards of behaviour from DD, some would say too high for her age, esp in terms of manners etc..! The thing is it has worked for us. At the moment i have a little girl who will stop and comply when I say "i'm going to count" and i don't need to add in a consequence because we have done this from a very young age, certainly before her 1st b'day.
I think DH and I look upon DD as a little person with views of her own (mostly that boys are horrible and that pink milk is heaven) who just needs some help negotiating her way. I don't think boundaries are about control, they are about guidance. You are saying to a child, yeah you could do whatever they are thinking of, but the outcome might not be great for you". As a parent you give examples of the unpleasant outcome from time to time.

Sorry, bit of a ramble, but this is quite tricky to articulate.

jimjams how awful for your ds, at least it stopped.
I was thinking of the diet issue the other night as I really at the end of my tether.We dont really eat junk food at home (odd take-away), no EEEE's or anything here but they may be in his school dinners.Will definitely be making enquiries and sending him with packed lunch from tomoro

fairymum maybe a little advice would be nice instead of critism of people and their situations. Everything is not black and white you know.

definitely worth a try doormat. check what he's having to drink as well- they're often worse than the food.

Already asked about juice but he doesnt drink it. Thanx

Doormat, I think you are being a bit unfair with me now. To me, the issue of smacking is black and white. I have also given advise on how to deal with situations. Not yours in particular. I am not the right person to advise you as I have much younger children and also my dd is very well-behaved so have not had to deal with those kind of situations. It would be like the old truth that the best parents are the ones without children....
BTW, I am not a fan of naughty corners either

Fairymum sorry but I dont think I am being unfair at all, I was only asking as you made statements about my and others discipling techniques dont work, if we have children who are "naughty".I am asking for constructive advice that you cannot give me.

I also have asked for what your definition of naughty is.

I understand that you are very anti-smacking and that is your choice.
I smack and dont like doing it but it doesnt make me a bad parent or harsh or slack in my disciplining methods.In some situation I experience it is needed.

You are also making assumptions that with an older child the smack is harder which does not happen in my case.

marialuisa, I think your post really articulates a lot of my own thoughts on this issue. I really DO try to see his POV as muchas possible and it really does help me get a grip. Bekki, my ds is only just over two, so couldn't manage that walk, in fact he can't really manage any walk - he's the ultimate ditherer and I envy mothers who can walk with their toddlers. With me, I have to think, either we can take 45 minutes to go somewhere that would take me 10mins - chatting about leaves etc, or we have to get there fast. If it's the latter then I put him in the pushchair even if he howls. Mostly I try to compromise, let him walk (or rather stand and stare) for part of the way, giving plenty of notice that soon he will have to into he pushchair and then put him in it. I also distract like crazy..'OOOH LOOK! A blue aeroplane! Or talk about future plans "Soon Grandma will be coming!" in a way that hopefully intrigues him. Mostly he stops howling, but there are times he doesn't. It's just life, isn't it? I don't expect 'perfect' behaviour. He's only human. With older children I used to look after promises worked better than threats, and I tried never to use the 'if' word, because it implied more choice than I wanted them to have - ie instead of 'if you tidy this up, we'll do Y" Or 'Unless you do that we won't do X" I'd say, "When you've tidied this/done your homework, we'll... go to the park, start putting together that Lego space station, go out for a McDonalds" (yes, I know!!) - ie something I knew they really wanted. Then I'd sit quietly with a book until it was done. I won't say they did things immediately, but iirc, they nearly always did. Otherwise we didn't do the thing I'd promised. Follow through is vital, so never threaten to take away anything you fancied having/ doing! Like Marialuisa I TRY not to think of behaviour as naughty - I think I said before I think of it as positively as I can - eg boisterous, inquisitive, determined (!) unless it is socially unacceptable or dangerous to him or others. And yes, sometimes it is annoying to have him 'play' his recorder for hours, so I will take it away, but try to do so nicely and distract him. I honestly don't try to control him and I don't really expect 'respect' either. I just want us all to live together as cooperatively and harmoniously as possible. Sometimes I have exert my authority because I'm the grownup (up to a point) but never for the sake of it. Mind you, my stepdaughter is now 12, and has her first bra, so I expect I will be posting for advice on teenagers soon!

Doormat, It seems like you are misreading everything I am writing. I am debating the issue of smacking and you take everything I say as a personal attack against you and your parenting skills.
I am giving my opinion on this issue and my opinion is that smacking is not a very constructive form of disciplining. I don't think children are better behaved because they are smacked.
I don't have a "defintion" of naughty behaviour. I have noticed, though, that when discussing toddlers some talk about certain behaviour as being naughty, whilst others say that's simply normal toddler behaviour. They have to go through certain stages of behaviour as part of their development. I think this section of Mumsnet is full of good advise on how to handle toddlers.
I have said that I don't feel that I am the right person to give you advise to handle your particular situation. I think that's fair enough?
I don't think it's that strange that I make assumptions that the smack is harder with older kids? (I was actualy posing it as a question in an earlier post).Again, I am not commenting on your situation, but surely a smack effective on a toddler would not be very effective on a 12 year-old? It doesn't really matter as I have already said that I think it is the humiliation and the disrespect from a smack that hurts more than the smack itself.

It seems that some see my opinions as very controversial. I don't think they are at all. Smacking is legislated against in many European countries and I believe most childcare experts do not see smacking as an effective tool of parenting. Also, the NSPCC support a ban against smacking. I am not alone in my opinions, but I have very good company

Doormat, I have followed your posts on your ds before and I can see why you are frustrated, totally. And it does remind me a bit of my brother. I can think of things my parents could have done differently with my brother BTW, but I'm not saying he would ever have been an easy child or had an easy time at school. He found it incredibly hard to sit still and still cannot see why he should obey rules because he finds it hard to anticipate consequences. Do you think your son is like that Doormat? I wonder if sitting down with him and talking to him about consequences would help - ie if you did this, what do you think would happen? But in a friendly, game-playing sort of way? I think it might have helped my brother a bit.

Aloha I have done this also, thanx anyway. I am going to try the diet thing as it is the only thing I have left.Marialuisas post was very good and encapulated all my parenting beliefs.

Fairymum I dont take your comments personally at all,please dont think thatand dont take mine personally neither ok
It is just a bit demeaning when people come up with assumptions. Believe me it hurts me more than him.
I just none of you end up with a naughty boy like mine

Well, Doormat, there's always the 'growing out of it' theory as well.... And he'll change schools at 11 anyway. Good luck with him.

BTW,what happened when you played 'consequences' with him? Was he able to accurately anticipate how other people would react to him? I ask because I honestly don't think my brother would have been able to at that age.

Aloha he is great at accepting that his actions have consequences, and also rewards for good and punishment for bad.
We never played a game as such, I just sit down and explain all the pros and cons as honestly as I can and ask which he prefers will do him the best.

doormat, I have gone back and tried to read all your posts about your son. As you know, I believe in smacking, but it doesn't sound to me like that is what your son needs at this point. It sounds to me like there is something profoundly disturbing him at his current school. Perhaps a teacher or another pupil. If it's possible, I wonder whether a completely new school might not be the best thing. If there is something bothering him, he could get away from it and it would also mean a completely clean slate for him. I think 10 can be a difficult age for boys. Is he at a middle school with older kids? Also, have you thought about taking him for family counselling? Relate are great and will only charge you according to your ability to pay. They may have some really useful suggestions on what is going on and how to deal with it. I think that it's fairly clear that punishments in the form of removing priveleges are just not working. Don't beat yourself up, they don't work for every child. My brother was difficult as a child...he was never badly behaved, but just wouldn't apply himself to his school work and got terrible grades...considering he is a genius this was extremely frustrating to my parents. But they never did get him to do his homework.
Anyway, sorry about the ramble....I feel for you and hope you manage to find some solutions.

Doormat, (warning this is long!!) I don't mean to bang on when you are clearly doing everything you can... but (to bang on!) I wonder if your explaining the pros and cons might actually feel like criticism to him (which I know it isn't intended as) and so be less effective than a more open-ended conversation, where you merely say things like, 'If you were to speak to Mr X sarcastically ,how do you think he'd feel?' and let him try to work it out (I think best to do this lightheartedly). It's just that if you set out the pros and cons, well, he's not having to think really. Also he won't come up with his own solutions. Obviously if you say A is good and B is bad, he will say that B is best, but if you let him/help him come up with his own ideas and solutions this might throw up some new approaches neither of you have considered. This approach is used by a lot of different therapists, including time management specialists who deal with people who feel they aren't coping at work. One told me that people (and these are professional adults she is talking about) tend to put up barriers to other people's solutions, but if they feel they have come up with the idea themselves are much more likely to put them into practise, iyswim. It's also about trying to get him to look at his feelings and other people's feelings. For example, he might answer that the teacher would feel angry and annoyed, so you could say something like, and 'how do you think that might make him act?" and then "how would that make you feel if he did that?". I think he might just feel terribly defensive at the moment, with the view that everyone thinks he's bad so he might as well be bad. One therapist I have talked to suggests that you don't ask 'why did you do that?" because it feels like criticism and tends to provoke more defensiveness and aggression. Instead she suggested saying, "How did you feel when when you did that?" and trying to get at his motives that way. I also personally think the school's approach is wrong. I think by getting you to do their punishing for them they make sure your son has nowhere to go that isn't an extension of school and clearly school isn't working for him. I know he's behaving badly, but by making you responsible for punishing him he might feel that the whole world is against him. As I say, I may be completely wrong about this, but I think that's a difficult position to be in. Believe me, I'm not criticising you at all but I think it might be a little like having a hideous time at work, fighting with your boss, who you think is bullying and unreasonable but instead of sympathising, your husband tells you that you are wrong and your boss is right. They may well be correct, but it might make you feel undermined and resentful. As I keep saying, I don't know you or your son, so if it's not appropriate then obviously feel free to ignore

Sofia - guess what, we had dinner together tonight! And it was very nice indeed. Then I sat down with a bottle of wine and watched Wife Swap. I'm not saying we'll do it every night, but we will definitely do it much more often. Ds enjoyed it I think - he was too busy eating to comment much!

doormat, I have only had time to skim read posts here and I might be repeating things or getting them wrong but thought I'd list the things that help turn my 9 year old son's behaviour around, it it's of any help to you.

He started Year 4 under a big cloud - we were called in to discuss his behaviour with his teacher and the SENCO. We were told he was fidgity, distracting and sometimes defiant to teachers, but they also said he was not special needs, since (their reason) he knew how to behave, he just chose not to. Is this like your son?

Now a year later and although no great personality change, he is (so far, don't want to push my luck) better both at home and at school.

What helped:
A behaviour book and home/school agreement - my son, my dh and I along with his class teacher all agreed what was expected from my ds and what he could expect from us. We also agreed with him on rewards for having a good week. And punishments for having a bad week ( no gameboy or xbox). It was much easier to back up school discliple because I had a written record of what had happened in class. It was not just my son's version. He is honest on the whole, but would sometimes tell me stories about how he had been punished and others hadn't. Armed with the behaviour book, I could write down his version of events and ask the teacher for her comments - there was a two-way flow of information, with no need of calling a formal meeting with her. Each day his teacher and dh or I wrote comments (good or bad) in his behaviour book so we all knew what was going on. At the end of a good week at home and school he got a reward (money or a fishing trip with dh). Nothing happened much for a term and a half. I only noticed the difference in the spring of this year. Suddenly there were longer 'good' periods. I then upped the reward so just three good days got him a little extra money, just to spur him on. That worked really well. His teacher backed this too.She started giving him double bonus points if he got no minus points over three days - he was rewarded just for not being naughty He didn't have to be particularly good. The school recognised his efforts in simply staying out of trouble. Overall, rewards worked better than punishment by then.

Actively encouraging him to stay away from boys who encouraged him to behave badly - his teacher used to give him a minus mark just for talking to two certain boys in class time. It wasn't that they were bad, but just that they wound up my son. I also gave my son packed lunches because these boys had school dinners. My son told me that if he sat with them they would make him get into trouble. He was getting fed up of being told off. He also had a friend a few doors down from us who egged him on. Again my son recognised this and so we gradually put more distance between them both. At the same time he saw more of his other friends who were 'good'.

Also in the early summer he had a grommit fitted so he could hear better and started taking fish oils - I have no idea if either of these physical changes worked wonders - my son has stopped the fish oils now and I can't see any regression, but you never know.

I am sure you have tried everything and I know how hopeless things can seem - you say your son is usually good at home so it must be extremely frustrating for you.

Hope I am not teaching you to suck eggs but here are other things that work for me:
Warning first then taking away myu son's gameboy or pokemon cards if he does not stop. Also I tell him he must do 'x' before I have finished counting to 10. If not he gets 'x, y z' taken away. It's in black and white them with a time limit. He responds to this.

If you do decide to change schools, this may be a turning point. Although it has taken my son over a year to settle into his new school (he changed schools at 7 years), I am totally convinced, and my son seems to think this too, that if he had stayed at his other school his behaviour would be far more uncontrollable.

Another quick idea- Do you think ds might quite like it when the school sends him home to you or involves you in their discipline policy in such a big way, doormat? I know you have a lovely big family and a lot going on at home- not least your little ds with special needs- and I wonder if this an attention-seeking thing on your 10 y.o. ds's part? If misbehaviour results in even negative sole attention from you, such as (justified) tellings off, that might be quite a motivating reason to misbehave, maybe? Does he get much special time alone with you and/or other available adults? I know it's incredibly difficult to fit in...

sofiaAmes, aloha, tigermoth and scummymummy thankyou all so much for your advice, it has really touched me knowing that you are all trying to find an answer to my problems

All I can say is that he doesnt get smacked that much only when he has gone too far (ie last time was when he tried to break school glass doors with a piece of wood)
I also agree the school is wrong but if it wasnt for our 100% support he would of been excluded a long time ago.
I realise he is frustrated and the punishment at school is left to me and his dad only because we have a school-home agreement like tigermoth had with her son as they just cannot handle him when he gets in one of these moods. He has seen counsellors and SENCO and sounds very like tigermoths son.They say there is nothing wrong.
He gets wound up all the time but he also winds other kids up to.
As for the rewards thing we do like tigermoth does.
He was given the privelege of being a school monitor a few weeks ago and this really calmed him down as he like the responsibility but then he lost this because he acted up again.
As for quality time we do this with all our children, they have different activities and hobbies. Ds is at football 2 nights and a day a week. This has been taken off him the last few weeks since the incident in school but because he is behaving himself so far this week it will be returned to him tomorrow.He helps me with the cooking etc and we have little chats about what is going on and what he is thinking in his life.I try to give as much one-to-one as I can as I feel this is important to children.
As for he wants to come home, whoa he hates, he is one of those kids that watches the clock to go to school, he hates staying at home.When he is sent home I make his little life hell,(joke by the way) he helps me all day until school time is finished with boring jobs as I dont see the point in him coming home and watching the tv or playing on his playstation etc as that would be defeating the object.
I sent him off with packed lunches the last couple of days so will see if this improves his behaviour.Wish me luck and thankyou all again.You are all so lovely.

doormat, all I can say is keep plugging away. It took a long time for the behaviour book to show more good days than bad days and I have no idea really if it was the book that worked or something else - so difficult to find the key. I do know we put all these things into practice, from fish oils to the book without seeing any change for months. I'm not saying my son is a total angel now, but the school seem happy with him. This time last year he was seeing the head 2 or 3 times a term and missing golden time nearly every week. This term he hasn't missed golden time once so far or seen the head at all. I will ask him what really made the difference to him, and see it that sheds light on anything.

You sound like a great mum btw.