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Is all smacking unacceptable?

221 replies

Bekki · 29/10/2003 17:03

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

OP posts:
handlemecarefully · 03/11/2003 15:17

I don't get the tory joke - marialuisa, since fairymum has gone, please explain it to me. I'm not quick on the uptake with jokes.

Enid · 03/11/2003 15:26

HMC, my dd is just one and she responded, eventually, to a cross face, a stern no and putting her down on the floor (she used to grab my glasses and try and pull them apart). It took a while and I had to remember to be consistent and keep doing it, even when I sometimes thought it was funny and I didn't really mind.

All children are different but I fail to see how tapping my dd in the face would have taught her anything. IMO its a much more sophisticated thing to realise 'Oh, mum just hit me, it wasn't nice, i realise now how horrid it is, ok, I wont hit her either'. Surely babies are more likely to respond to 'wait a minute, I just did that thing to mum and now she's put me down. I don't like that.'

Don't want to be argumentative but really, really don't understand the logic behind it.

lazyeye · 03/11/2003 15:30

I don't think there is any logic, thats the whole point. For me, its just pure reaction, bad though that is. I don't sit and logically think it through.

Enid · 03/11/2003 15:33

No, I don't suppose there is in the heat of the moment, but its the arguments used to justify it afterwards that require a certain amount of logic. I can understand doing something in a temper that you then regret - but I think you need to admit to yourself that it is wrong and you want to change it, just as badmum (I hate even typing that, please change your nickname) and you, lazyeye, are doing.

marialuisa · 03/11/2003 15:33

HMC- in answer to your q about your DD I'd say that you should have persisted for longer and combined the strong diapproving "no" with putting her on the floor away from you.

As for the tory joke, I defended Twinkie's right to say that parents who smack are misguided, because to me that's her opinion, in the same way as it's my opinion that people who vote tory are misguided. Fairymum has noted that I son't see the point of smacking and must therefore think that a tory voter who smacks their child is doubly misguided. Now tell me you vote tory and are doubly offended

handlemecarefully · 03/11/2003 15:33

Enid,

I don't feel that you are being argumentative and I'm happy to reply (but then I don't feel judged or insulted by your post)

All I can say Enid is it worked, and the other approaches didn't.....

I don't know why it worked so can't explain the logic behind it, sorry,

However it did work, and I'm pretty confident that my loving, self assured and happy daughter was pretty much unscathed by the experience....

Actually what this thread has inspired me to do is some active research on this subject...

handlemecarefully · 03/11/2003 15:34

No,

I don't vote tory :0

Just didn't get the joke - but do know. Thanks

handlemecarefully · 03/11/2003 15:35

that should have been rather than:0!

handlemecarefully · 03/11/2003 15:37

Oh, and that should have been 'do now', rather than 'do know'. Must be over tired!

Enid · 03/11/2003 15:43

Thanks HMC for responding in such a nice way. Well, you never know how these things are going to work I guess. TBH, my 'thing' about smacking is more to do with a deep-rooted fear of turning into my mother (!). I can believe that it doesn't make monsters out of otherwise happy children, its just that the way I would personally feel if I smacked is something I try to avoid.

lazyeye · 03/11/2003 15:43

Its all very hard init? I sometimes think I'm the worst mum in the world and then other days I think I'm not so bad. You just have to do the very best you can & I know one thing I've learnt, is that you should never really judge how others bring up their kids, unless of course its very obviously wrong.

I sometimes wonder if its the short gap between mine that drives me fruity. Eldest is nearly three, youngest just one and am 6 wks pg again having had mc in July. I worry that I'm not giving myself time to enjoy them.....am rambling on now, sorry.

lazyeye · 03/11/2003 15:47

Enid, you are so right about the mother thing. I think about that all the time. TBH the most negative impact my mother had on me was not the smacking, but the shouting and lack of physical contact. I am really overboard with touching my 2. Gawd, its turing into Ricki Lake. "My mother didn't hug me.........."

Enid · 03/11/2003 15:52

I know, its b**y hard, isnt it? I am my own worst critic, if I ever do anything the way my mum did (usually negative things) I am eaten up with guilt for days. Its all very boring and predictable, but there we are.

badmum1 · 03/11/2003 19:18

Glad that this has all calmed down a bit. I just want to say that I'm not a child beater, I don't want you all to think that I'm thrashing my children on a daily basis, I'm not. I also don't drag them around.

I do have another name on here as I'm a regular poster and I have considered coming clean and admitting who I am, I don't think that I will now though.

I do think I am a product of the way I was brought up. Not that that is an excuse but I do think I am turning into my mother. To be honest, although I love my mum, I really don't want to be like her. She moaned at my children the other day and I told her that she had to stop doing it. I think seeing her with them is just highlighting what I am doing wrong. Hopefully, I can break the cycle.

Jimjams · 03/11/2003 19:31

I do drag ds1 around. No choice if he's gone into one and is about to throw himself in front of a car. Happened today- Somerfield was too busy and crowded for him so he ran off, I had to run after him (leaving ds2 in his buggy and all my cards and money next to the till) and drag him back to the till. No choice. Always give people something to gawp at, but if they pay attention they will see that I am talking to him calmly whislt doing it (usually repeating one word today it was "waiting waiting waiting" and there is no smacking going on.

Jimjams · 03/11/2003 19:32

Should have been a bracket not a wink

Eowyn · 03/11/2003 20:47

re public nastiness, seem to see a lot of parents swearing at children, I think that is just as horrid & makes you wonder if the children have any chance of growing up as pleasant people.

I hope i can avoid smacking on the whole, but if dd is being particularly naughty & I can't think of anything else, or more realistically don;t have the energy to, I will no doubt administer a small smack & am not going to feel bad about it. I will explain the whole thing to her & she makes clear choices whether to disobey me.

Another point re controlling children: I'm sure I've heard of them needing boundaries & to know what is expected of them & that they feel more secure with some rules rather than none. Isn't that right? Therefore I do see discipline (not necessarily smacking) as extremely important in raising a good, considerate person, as opposed to one who doesn't progress from the natural selfishness of a toddler.
Personally I would be a lot happier if I was a mum who knew what to do, how to handle things, how to be patient & calm. I can read the books but reality is a little more trying.

Eowyn · 03/11/2003 20:49

re public nastiness, seem to see a lot of parents swearing at children, I think that is just as horrid & makes you wonder if the children have any chance of growing up as pleasant people.

I hope i can avoid smacking on the whole, but if dd is being particularly naughty & I can't think of anything else, or more realistically don;t have the energy to, I will no doubt administer a small smack & am not going to feel bad about it. I will explain the whole thing to her & she makes clear choices whether to disobey me.

Another point re controlling children: I'm sure I've heard of them needing boundaries & to know what is expected of them & that they feel more secure with some rules rather than none. Isn't that right? Therefore I do see discipline (not necessarily smacking) as extremely important in raising a good, considerate person, as opposed to one who doesn't progress from the natural selfishness of a toddler.
Personally I would be a lot happier if I was a mum who knew what to do, how to handle things, how to be patient & calm. I can read the books but reality is a little more trying.

SofiaAmes · 03/11/2003 21:45

Ok...I admit it. I am a tory (or would be if I could vote in this country) AND I smack my children. AND I let them run around in bare feet AND I put not so clean clothes on them two days running. AND I let them have sweets for dinner on Halloween. AND ......

On a more serious note...I am a bit surprised at how self-rightous some mothers are about treating children with calm and respect and not saying anything nasty to them and only being positive, but then seem to think it's ok to be nasty and disrespectful to people around them (like other mothers on this thread). It would be nicer if people could express their opinions on parenting without insulting others with different opinions.

Bekki · 03/11/2003 21:49

I agree with you completely Eowyn.

Aloha - tomorrow I'm going to try different techniques to deal with ds1. Not because I think that my way is in any way wrong but I just want to see if it is actually realistic, and more importantly - any more effective. I would love to have your input, with alternatives to bribery and smacking, neither of which were at all useful with dealing with his appalling behaviour today. One major problem that we are trying to get through is ds1's jealousy of ds2 (8 weeks). I have walked in on him twice now to see him trying to squash ds2, and the same when I'm feeding ds2. If you could spare some time to write some pointers, words of wisdom on how you believe children should be treated and disciplined I would be very grateful. You never know, I could be converted.

OP posts:
Bekki · 03/11/2003 21:53

Oh thankgod. Someone else admits to being a normal mother. We had sweets for our halloween dinner too.

OP posts:
FairyMum · 03/11/2003 21:59

SofiaAmes, I am assuming you are referring to my posts, as well as other posters when you talk about insulting others. I think I have already apologised for some of my clumsy writing and tried to explain why I think this smacking-business is quite a hot topic for many of us. I think as soon as you start arguing that smacking is wrong on Mumsnet, you are accused of insulting people, thinking you are morally superior and the perfect parent. I know that I argue quite strongly that smacking is wrong. It wasn't until I became a parent in the UK myself that I realised that some people still smack children. I really thought it belonged to previous generations and I admit to being quite shocked by it. At the same time, I have specifically said again and again that I am not telling anyone they are a bad parent. I think smacking is a bad form of discipline. If you think that is such an unpleasant thing to say, then perhaps the truth is unpleasant ? All in all, I think the pro-smacking brigade give as good as they get on this thread really.....

FairyMum · 03/11/2003 22:01

And I am a normal mother too. I give my children sweets and I also bribe them occasionally. Noone said anything else

aloha · 03/11/2003 22:27

Oh, Bekki, I'm not sure I'm up to what you ask. I truly wish I was. I have such an easy life. Only one child fulltime and another at weekends. I think I do have 'easy' children with gentle temperaments. I really, really like children in general, and always have, but don't claim to have all the answers and this morning in particular I was so short tempered with ds that I had to go an get my dh up so he could deal with him because I wasn't being very nice or patient with him - and he wasn't being naughty or bad, just a bit persistent with wanting chocolate buttons, really. BUT if you really want me to say something, and this is very much from a deeply flawed person, then I would say, don't expect your ds1 not to be jealous - I say this because adjusting my expectations is the single key way I deal with my child, and I have read a lot about child development to try and make me understand how little he really understands and how underdeveloped his brain is etc etc and that has helped me personally with patience. He can't help being jealous - he has a rival for your love and to him, your love is life itself. In his baby mind he's engaged in a life or death struggle with this 'intruder' who might steal his mother - the person he loves more than anyone in the world - away from him. Imagine you were him, unable to understand that you can love two as well as one, afraid you will be cast out, secretly terrified about what will happen if you are. Of course, you can't let him hurt his brother It would be cruel to both of them to let that happen as your ds1 is a lovely boy and would feel guilty and bad if you did. Constant supervision is the only answer so you can step in to prevent trouble. Treat your ds2 as if he is in the same room as a deep pond or a roaring fire - he needs to be watched but the pond or the fire aren't 'bad' for being a potential source of harm. Give your ds1 a sense of importance, and don't tell him to love his brother, but tell him his sister loves him and loves him specially, even more than he loves mummy. This was pretty effective with my stepdaughter with all her new siblings (and I rather fear it is also true ) - IME children love to feel valued and special, even if it's by someone they resent. Show him how to help his little brother, but don't tell him he's a big boy and grown up, because they might reinforce his belief that he's being elbowed aside and that he won't be loved in the same way as before (of course, I know that isn't true, but I bet she fears it might be). Encourage your friends to coo over him, not the new baby. I'm always horrified when people beeline for new babies in front of older siblings. It must be gutting for them. Say how sorry you feel for poor little girls who are 'lonely onlies' - a tactic my friend used very effectively with her two girls to make them feel very superior that they had siblings! Of course children need boundaries, and I won't permit hitting or throwing things at people and am very encouraging of thank yous and hellos and goodbyes etc, but I try to notice good behaviour the minute I see it and give lots and lots of praise (ie you are being so gentle with your brother, good boy, I'm so proud of you etc etc ad nauseum) and ignoring bad - ie if he goes to attack the baby take him out of the room/away from the baby and ignore him. And also I think it helps to assume all phases, however nasty, are temporary, esp if tackled early. I bet Brooklyn was dead jealous of Romeo when he was born, but did you see the pix of them in the park together today? Brooklyn was picking up his baby brother and kissing him. I thought the pictures were just lovely. Made me want a brother for ds, even! I don't know if any of this helps at all. For me, trying to see things from ds's point of view is so helpful in controlling what can be a really nasty, explosive temper.
BTW Sofia, we don't agree politically or on this issue, but I do think sitting down every night to eat supper together as a family like you do is something I feel pretty guilty about not achieving esp as I don't even try because I love to slob in front of rubbish TV with a bottle of wine instead. I think eating together every night is a great thing to do, if that doesn't sound patronising. And bare feet and dirty clothes... hmm, that sounds familiar! MY MIL is quietly appalled.

aloha · 03/11/2003 22:30

Sorry I got my genders mixed up - I initially thought you had daughters, not sons.
And my podgy ds had a gingerbread man, four chocolate buttons and ate nearly whole packet of ham as we went round the supermarket (Before I paid for it!!!) this pm, so sign me up for the bad mothers club too, if you like. In my defense, Nigella stuffs her kids full of cake if you believe what she writes, and the ham was organic