Is all smacking unacceptable?

[Bekki]

I have just started reading the thread on smacking and I was quite surprised to see that no one thought smacking was acceptable. Its very rare to see children being smacked in public but every parent that I know uses smacking as a last resort in disciplining. Is it just that people feel ashamed and fear a backlash? I'm not on about smacking through temper, but a thought out controlled smack that is explained to the child. There have been certain situations in public where a smack was the only answer for my ds as we had run out of options and it was quick, effective and calmed him immediatley. Am I the only 'smacker' on mumsnet?

Aloha, you always manage to put your position on this in such a reasoned and eloquent way.

Observations of "real" people and some of the situations described on mumsnet have confirmed my feeling that smacking is more to do with the parent and their feelings than managing the behaviour of the child.

I agree that the smacking is probably more to do with me than my children. When the children are playing up I think I panic because things are getting out of my control. I suppose I smack them because it gives the control back to me. I have never really thought about it like that before, but I'm pretty sure that is what is happening.

If anyone can tell me how they would deal with my children, I'd be pleased to hear any suggestions. My eldest spends most of the time running around like a mad thing, making silly noises and winding up my ds. Ds will then start screaming, and he does scream really loudly, my eldest will try to jolly him out of it and then it starts all over again. Repeated requests for the running around to stop, just do not work. In fact nothing seems to work, everything goes in one ear and out the other. My eldest told my mum the other day that she liked being naughty because its fun. How do I deal with that?

Hi badmum, I dont know if anyone has suggested this but why not
run around the house yourself and act like your child
scream back

I find that when my little one or when my children were little, if they had a tantrum or started screaming I would do the same back but 100 times worse.They would look at me shocked and that stopped their behaviour.
I would always say "if you can do that so can I but I am bigger"

Also tantrums in supermarkets or anywhere for that matter I would just say "fine chuck a wobbly" and walk away. (I always stayed within sight dont worry) Then turned around and said have you finished c'mon lets go.

I know these tactics have worked for me.

Its as they have got older that I have had to smack when there is bad behaviour.

Badmum1, I think if kids are inside (as they have had to be thanks to weather recently) it very easily gets out of hand. Your description sounds like my mum's 2, (8y and 3y), when she can't stand it anymore she puts on wellies and coats and everyone goes and gets soaked. IF my bro moans, she tells him that she thought he must be desperate to go outside because he was being so hyper.

Caught DD making "perfume" from shampoo etc, which she knows she shouldn't do. When I found her she told me "it's not naughty, it's having a lovely fun time!" which from her point of view it was.....

Does your DD find being naughty fun, because of your reactions?

Badmum1, do you think your children are bored ? Obviously children are sometimes bored and will play up, but I always find that my children get worse if they are bored. I try to avoid situations which can create boredom. I try to be outside as much as possible, even when it's cold and rainy. Remember the saying "there is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing!" The worst thing which can happen to my kids is to be inside on a rainy day with nothing to do. Then all hell breaks loose. I guess I am quite lucky becase I work fulltime. I have no idea what I would have done if I was left with my kids 24/7. I really admire those of you who can do that without going mad......

Marialuisa, I guess our posts crossed......

Thanks Marialuisa
And I agree with Fairymum, being a SAHM must be an incredibly hard job and I also admire anyone who does it - esp with more than one child - and stays half way sane . I have three mornings at nursery, work from home and have support from my mum and dh so I know my life is just so easy compared with many.
BM, do you think it might help to redefine 'naughty' in your mind? I try not to think of behaviour as 'naughty' -but define it instead as curious, inquisitive, noisy, boisterous, emotional etc etc - so I don't feel I have to stop it because it is 'naughy'. Of course not all behaviour is acceptable and I step in sharpish if I think ds is actually going to break something immediately (or hurt another child), but actually, he has never really damaged anything so far, so in the main I let him get on with stuff. Luckily our oven is wall mounted and things like that which also makes life easier. I don't think it is 'naughty ' for children to run around noisily or to tease each other, just rather annoying for adults. I really try to ride these things out and provide distractions wherever possible. I used to look after a family of three kids who were extremely noisy and full on so I'd 'teach' them gymnastics in the hall! ie handstands and stuff, which they found distracting, and we went out a lot. I have quite a good ability to tune out noise etc, I think. Ds 'plays' his recorder at earsplitting volume but I don't mind. I think being 'naughty' is fun, actually, for children - ie , you just have a different perception, what you describe as naughty behaviour they describe as having fun. Maybe try to step back. YOu don't have to control your children all the time IMO. I don't think I ever control my ds!! And trying to do so is just making you unhappy. Why not see what happens if you don't intervene so much, and instead set up a few quieter activities they can all join in with , such as Twinkie's suggestion of making jam tarts? From your description it seems as if neither child is doing anything very bad (just annoying) and they don't let it go too far either, (ie when your younger child screams, your eldest doesn't bully but 'jollies him out of it; which I actually think sounds positive) Silly noises I'd definitely ignore - they are harmless and, I think, often amusing. Why not have a 'who can make the silliest noise' competition?

And give lots and lots of attention to your kids the minute they show any behaviour you like - so if they sit down for a moment with the lego, say, "Oh, you are clever to build that lego, I really like the way you can sit quietly and concentrate and it's turning out really well' etc etc. IME if you have very full-on kids the temptation is to use their quiet times to do something else or just flake out so they only get attention for the noise etc.

Badmum- I have to say that doesn't sound like naughty behaviour. My cousin's 3 children visited this- the two eldest 10 and 8 charged around the house with little ds2 (22 months) chasing after them. Very noisy but so what. When it gets a bit too hyper - ie that stage where someon't going to get hurt then we just offered an alternative. Offering something different to do works really well in my experience.

I'm also pretty good a blocking out noise. If ds1 is having a really whiny moany day then I don't rush over every time (often he'll start screaming becuase the adverts are on, or because the washing machine isn't going round (it's in a rinse/soak part of the cycle). The screaming is bloody annoying, but he's just communicating that he's cross. I may say something like "its the adverts" or "it'll go round again in a minute", but I don't tell him off (after all he's communicating). I have become very good at blocking out the noise though, otherwise I would go insane.

Hi Aloha

You are right about their behaviour not really being naughty, just annoying. In fact if my mum or dh moans because they are running around, I am quick to jump on them and point out that they are only playing. I can moan about them but no one else can, not even their dad.

My mum has been helping me out a lot recently because I haven't been well and it looks like this might continue. When my mum speaks to them, I know that is where I get my impatience from.
Sorry finish this later.

I'm sorry you haven't been well. Hope you feel better soon.

I am sure that there are pros and cons for both smacking and not smacking.
I don't believe in it myself and would absolutely not smack my daughter (now 4, and well behaved) under any circumstances, any more than I would hit anyone else.
Smacking done in a considered way, not in anger, is clearly totally different to smacking in anger, but I think that if you use smacking it takes a lot of control not to smack in anger on occaision.

Most importantly, there is good and bad parenting, and this is a more important issue in my mind than whether you use physical discipline.

My personal parenting philosophy is to lead by example - not inflicting pain on others or being rude to or shouting at people, including dd.
There is nothing to say this is the best way and it would be ignorant of me to judge other people's philosophies - I say each to his own, and you will find all schools of thought on mumsnet!

Sorry I didn't finish my post earlier. All I was trying to say was that I know that I am too much like my mum. When I hear her talking, I know that I want to do things differently.

Anyway, had a nice day today. Had a halloween party this afternoon and the kids all enjoyed themselves.

Well said Scoobysnaxs!

I understand all of your points Aloha and can see the principal behind them but in my life, with my children, its not a realistic option. I also know that it wouldn't work.

I am the product of a non-smacking mother. I was a very quiet child and never challenged my mum and so was never smacked. As a teenager I had no boundaries and I became out of control. I needed my mum to show her authority not just to keep me in line but also to help me feel protected and secure.

My ds needs constant reminders regarding who is in charge. If he isn't smacked when he becomes out of control then he would feel scared as he needs very direct, clear guidelines on how to behave which can only be explained to him once he has calmed down.

I don't feel bad about smacking, I know that it is the best way to deal with my sons bad behaviour (for me and for him). And I know the difference between 'annoying' behaviour and 'naughty' behaviour.

I'm a bit confused Bekki, you say you were a quiet child who never challenged your mother, but you say that your subsequent teenage behaviour was due to not being smacked...but if you behaved well why on earth would your mother smack you? Do you think she should have smacked you anyway? I am genuinely baffled.

And I feel a bit put out. At the end of the day whether I'm smacking my children because they are annoying or naughty makes no difference. I'm not happy with the way I deal with things and I want to do something about it.

I sometimes smacked my eldest two children, in the days well before advice on alternative parenting ideas was available. I smacked my dd1 once when she was 2.5yr (in anger, I'm sorry to say) and decided never to smack again. DD2 has never been smacked, even though she is the one who has given us the most challenges. Other methods work just as well.

Surely if smacking is a necessary form of discipline, countries such as Sweden, where it is illegal, and Indonesia, where it simply isn't part of their culture, would be full of out-of-control individuals?

Its when you see kids out and about who are smacked for being kids really, I get sad.

Excellent point Suedonim. I am always so interested in your experience of Indonesia, and they way they treat children.

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Hope your cold gets better soon, Bloss. The children in Indonesia behave nothing like those in your experience of Japan, which is a blessing, by the sounds of it! I wonder if it is something to do with the fact that Japan is much more of a westernised country than much of Asia? The very few badly behaved children I saw in Indonesia were those with westernised families - parents wearing designer clothes, driving big European cars and eating in western-style restaurants. Many of those parents have nannies who go everywhere with them. Some of them are treated like dirt by both their charges and the parents. I was really shocked to see nannies left outside cafes while the family inside enjoyed pizzas and coke. (Though I hope I'm not painting too black a picture - not everyone was like that!) I also noted the same thing in India, the more westernised the family the more badly behaved the child.

I believe China now has a reputation for raising a generation of overweight, spoilt and unpleasant children, due to their One Child policy, which is sad. I think the naughtiest children in dd's school in Jakarta were the Koreans! They had a lot of pressure put on them by their parents to perform academically, so maybe being naughty at school was their way of kicking away the traces.

This subject is endlessly fascinating me! I'm sure society can learn much by looking at other cultures.

Thanks for your comment, Aloha - I always love to hear about your little boy.

Badmum, sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Hmmm, how do I avoid smacking? First of all, I should say that I'm not a SAHM - I'm just about to start work again after four months' maternity leave but even during my time off my dd1 has been at her childminder three days a week. So I'm not up against it every day. And I do know that I get very, very knackered and nasty and snappish with them and I can feel the urge to lash out.

But that is part of it. I know that my urge to smack is an urge to hurt. I can't dress it up. It's a violent impulse. And I don't want to be violent to my beautiful little girls. They have enough to put up with as it is - I do worry that I'm not a very good mother, and I don't want to make things worse for them! I was slapped by my parents and I hated it; it did hurt and it was humiliating and made me feel like I was a 'thing' IYKWIM (and I'm talking not very often at all, btw).

I wrote an article a while ago about smacking and ways to avoid it; some of the diversion tactics haven't particularly worked for me but it does help me to remember that it isn't the kids' fault that I'm tired and fed up. And that getting into a child-level row won't help anyone. And that some things, quite frankly, aren't worth fighting about.

In some ways I've also found it helpful to say 'sorry, darling, I'm cross'. Or even 'don't do that because it's just really annoying'. Which is, in a way, a reverse of Aloha's approach but works for us!

Oh, and Aloha's two are quite lovely. As opposed to the son of some friends, whom I've seen rampaging round the room destroying things...as his parents threatened him constantly with 'do you want a smack?'. DD1 was five days old at the time, and I've never forgotten my sense of outrage that this violence was going on in front of my tiny baby. Like I say, I'm far from a perfect mum but there are limits.