support thread for women who have chosen to terminate

[busierbee]

Hello
Busier Bee here - I felt that before I went to bed I wanted to open up officially a new place for weary travellers of those on the road that we have chosen to rest our heads, muse, sob, moan and support each other.
Also the kind, compassionate souls who have not been there but who offer their support and lend an ear and pass a gentle word.
We have chosen to be here and we are here and we are not alone.
Thank you so much all of you -for I personally do not know where I would have been in the last few weeks without you all.
Night - sleep well
kisses and thoughts
BB xx

You are rambling in a thoughtful, Justa way and I value you enormously kind lady and feel very moved by your openness and honesty in an area that is complex for us all and leaves you as a Christian potentially attacked for supporting us.
I was listening to Ruby Wax on the radio yesterday - she had a kind of breakdown from what I understand and realised that her previous life as an egotistical media clown was no longer the route for her. She has returned to studying - neuroscience and Jungian theory - and she articulated some of what I feel. That at a certain stage in a reflective, self insightful life one experiences individuation - which I do not know totally how to define - but a breaking away to some extent from the cult of society's pressure maybe and the sense of one's own forward path. What you are saying about the choices one makes and the path one follows. This particular decision that women here have made is so .. acute, deep, immediate and agonising.
There are so many thoughts and feelings linked in to my loss/choice - loss is not quite right of course, i did not lose a baby. That I met the man I love at 36, that we did not start trying for a baby til 40, that I am so much more aware of myself, what I can cope with, that i am aging fast, that I have no God or belief to sustain me.
So I have been thinking alot about religion. But I have to confess( dear Justaboutallwehaveinsteadofapriest) it is not a search for a higher divine being, or a belief in the words of the bible. It is more a community place to discuss life and why we are here and what are we doing. And the sense of belonging somewhere community wise where this decision and these feelings are accepted would be almost impossible in the Real World. There is nowhere.
I feel am the sort of person who would gain and contribute to a real life spiritual community. But frustratingly I just do not believe in God.
How annoying really.
So I am also rambling and I respect and am envious of your faith- is that terrible? As if it is a new coat I fancy? I do not mean to trivialise it.
Whoo - heavy Wednesday morning on mumsnet.
I totally understand why you do not want to discuss wee son on mN.
The children I met yesterday? They were so ... you know.
BB

Justa - thanks for the insight into ds2. Let us know how he is getting on if it seems ok to do so or you wat to. Thanks again.

BB and Justa - I find your brains and thought processes so similar to my own. I wish I had real knowledge or reading to add to this, and perhaps to guide you, BB, towards a group who do what you describe. All I have in my head is the result of being with women, through midwifery, all my formative years. I spent my 21st birthday night delivering a beautifull baby who had passed away a few days earlier. If I cant take these experiences and do something with them, I am insulting everyone who ever asked for my help iyswim? You just have to try and help people. That is faith to me, it's very simple and the reason a pro-choice health professional can be a Catholic.

This ramble in no way helping those who are making/living the 'choices', so I'll shut up

Do not shut up - Blossomtree!
I see what you are saying totally - that you are a soul who, through your experiences, recognises and empathises with the people who are living through pain and beauty and want to support and share. I do too. I guess it can be formalised and structured into religion if one is brought up in faith (I was not) or can just inform the life choices, career choices, friendships you have.
Was just thinking about you Tree as i sat on my sofa eating a mixture of Special K and cornflakes - in a patch of sunshine. You have a baby! A beautiful wriggley baby! I remember when my third was born, he was colicky, disgruntled - I think because he was induced and not ready to come out. I discovered that he was less grizzly if I actually put him down! My instinct to hold him, rock him etc was not always right - he wanted solidness underneath sometimes. Look at me - offering advice to a midwife!
How ridiculous of me.
Golly - what a night your 21st was. I hope you went out the next and downed a bottle of something.
BB x

Justa - if I told my lovely man I was a Quaker he would leave immediately! He is Scottish, although moved South aged 8, and grew up in a Presbyterian household with a very church going mother. She is now a United Reformed person. He is a Manchester United person.
Quakers? Do they wear black and white and eats lots of porridge?
I love that you truly have godly experience Justa- I find it so reassuring that there can be experiential evidence of God. That must be a rare and astonishing thing. I can not imagine it. I am sure it is not a chemical inbalance. Maybe you are one of his/her representatives.
What do I feel in a church? Peace yes. Community and belief but not my community or belief. History and slightly fear.
Even if I do not believe in God as such, I do feel that it is good to be examining this. Maybe am having a mid life crisis? Again!?
Get on with your work, me too - so addictive really talking to you ladies.
bye

Bb -I did indeed!

I hope that little history of mine isn't upsetting, but it is truth. We here know that life happens.

Your advice is good - once she gets a bit further down the line and we have this intolerance business sorted, I will get my midwife swaddling slef back.

I have a real life wriggling baby, I want to sort of apologise to you all for that. But thats not what you want I don't think. I think what I have to do is be gratefull, let her live her life and watch on and call it a tribute to others who suffer. Harriet will always be closely linked to you all you know, she has been here for nearly every post.

But if anyone really doesn't need to hear it, or needs to vent some really understandable fury, then I understand that. I really do. x

Blossomtree. My fav fav thing in the world are apple blossom and cherry blossom. They remind me of school and May Processions, and trooping off to visit the local sheltered housing golden oldies, the run up to my wedding. loads of stuff.

The council house I grew up in had a mega gardena nd the man next door had a whopper, as well as plum, apple adn cherry trees, and 4 apple trees.
Now my house has a yard but there are 3 of them on the main road behing us - phew.
one day I will have a house with a garden, french doors that open onto a lawn with a blossom right in the middle. I just don't know how though.....

So I am materialistic and want to be rich for some good reasons!

Good morning ladies.

I have been so moved by your posts...you have all been through such a rough time - I am so glad you have MN to express all these emotions.

Reading your posts has made me very hesitant about posting my own story. I have had 2 terminations (one at 8+4 and one and 7+2) and I suppose I have always felt that, compared to some, I did not have a "valid" reason for terminating. I am very wary of upsetting/offending anyone who is going through this awful time so if any of the following offends, please tell me and I will go away and not come back, ok?

I am 36 - nearly 37 - and have been battling ill health and ME since I was 23. I have good days and bad days (today is a bad day!) and sometimes I get really good periods when I feel quite well. It is a relapsing/remitting form of the illness, although I have other problems that I wont bore you with eg: a liver condition, gynae issues, hemiplegic migraines etc etc. I am married to a great man, paul, and we have 2 beautiful boys but it has been and long and painful process to get here....

We started trying for a baby and I got pregnant 9 months later. I was so happy!! I had wondered if my gynae problems would make things difficult, but I was pregnant!!! Sadly, about 6/7 weeks into the pregnancy my ME really kicked in and I was in a terrible state, literally crawling around on my hands and knees because I couldnt walk. Unfortunately pregnancy can cause a relapse in illness like ME and MS. I began bleeding - threatened miscarriage - and my dh and I realised that I couldnt go on for 9 months like this and we made the decision to terminate rather than wait for me to possibly miscarry. I went to a Marie Stopes clinic and had the termination without sedation - I sort of felt I should suffer because of what I was doing IYSWIM? It wasnt very pleasant. Unfortunately the termination was "incomplete" and I became very ill and some weeks later lost the rest of baby one afternoon whilst my dh was at work. I was hysterical......it was one of the worst experiences of my life. Even now I cant write about it without real grief....we told family and friends I had miscarried - my PIL are very religious and would never have forgiven us if they knew the truth. You are the only other people that know, apart from my dh.

I had to leave my P/T job due to all this which was very upsetting. After a few months had gone by I got pregnant again - I was terrified, but apart from the usual feelings of illness associated with pregnancy I was not as bad as the first time. I began to bleed again, but I managed to keep the baby He is now nearly 6 and the light of my life! He had a hard start in life as we were told he might have CP, but he is doing really well.

Perhaps, unsurprisingly, I developed severe late onset PND which was awful - I have very vague memories of ds1 first year and sort of disappeared for a while, but with the help of some meds got better.

After the trauma of ds1 birth and first few months of his life, my illness and then the PND, dh and I thought we wouldnt have any more children - I guess we felt we should count our blessings so to speak. Then when ds1 turned 4 we decided to try again. I am nothing if not an optimist!!!

I became pregnant very quickly but by 6 weeks it was obivous it was happening again -I was so ill - the difference this time being that I had my son to care for. I began bleeding again with a threatened micarriage and we made the decision again to terminate. Unsedated again. Again, we told family and friends I had miscarried. I was distraught...I simply could not believe this was happening to me again. Sadly, once again, the termination was incomplete and I lost the rest of the baby some weeks later, by which time I was so run down from the pain and heavy bleeding that I contracted whooping cough. I was pretty much bedridden for a few weeks but gradually got my strength back.

After some months, dh and I had unprotected sex - not planned, never for a moment thought I would get pregnant! - and surprise surprise I got pregnant. I was very scared, but secretly over the moon. I miscarried at 6 weeks. I was devastated. The pregnancy had been going well up to then. It was the week before xmas 2007 and it was a very sad time.

Over the xmas hols I became pregnant again - amazingly - and last september I gave birth to my ds2 who is now 7 months old. I am so, so lucky.

When I say I dont feel I had a "valid" reason its because I know in my heart that I could have continued with those 2 pregnancies and that I had the terminations was for my own selfish reasons i.e. my own health.

I know I made the right decision for me, my dh and our ds1 and if I hadnt had the terminations I wouldnt have my boys now, but I cannot lie and say that I do not regret having to make the choice I did, because it was a choice and even though it was the right one, it doesnt make it any easier to bear.

I love all my children, including those who are gone from me....they were only inside me for a short time, but the love I feel for them is with me always.

I really hope I havent upset anyone....I have tried to be honest about my feelings and the reason why I made my choices.

I hope you continue to find help and support on this thread. Thank you for letting me tell you my story x

Dearest Becaroo
I could not go about my day without replying to you dear lady. Boy you have been through it. You sound a thoughtful, reflective person who made the right decision for her family and that is what you have in common with us. It is agony to be in such a place but you are still here and you are sharing it with us and that is a truly amazing thing.
It sounds to me like you made the only decision possible given your circumstances - as Tree said earlier - we have so many things to take into consideration. You have been very responsible. Your health is crucial to the well running of your family - and you absolutely must be in the best health you can be for your children and husband. I have learnt from therapy that it is critical really. ALmost that you have to see yourself as one of your own children - if that makes sense.
Well done for sharing all these very painful memories. The Marie Stopes clinic issue - with incomplete procedures - I have heard before. It makes me very very angry for you.
Please do not feel for one nanosecond that you would be judged here - far far from it. I know these ladies - nearly two months of daily posting now - and I know their hearts will reach out to you sincerely.
Rest when you need to sweetie and reach out whenever and however you like. We are all honest, tolerant and understanding of each other's heartache.
with much love
BB x

I echo Justa becaroo, I am not living through this, just pop in to help if I can. So I can't comment, but am personally in no was offended by your history. ANd in no way judge the decisions you have made. We all so the best we can on the day with the information we have. That is making a choice. I am glad you found a place you have been able to write it down, I'm sure we will all take it as a tribute to the supportive thread we have nutured from its creation.

x

This is a message for a friend from ARC who I have just told about our intense, wonderful nutty support forum!
HELLO!
Welcome to you D - and hope you find some support here.
love
BB x

And Tree - I love that your baby is on the thread too - keep her here - she gives us hope.
BBx

Thank you very much. I cannot tell you how cathartic it has been to write it all down after so long....love to all of you x

Becaroo - just typed a message back to you but my laptop crashed, damn computers.

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I think it really helps to write it down and get it off your chest sometimes, it's good thearpy and much cheaper than counselling :>)

I know what you mean about having a "valid" reason. One of my main concerns surrounding my termination was my mental health and my PND and to some that probably doesn't sound valid either, but we do what we think is right for us, our families and our future.

Welcome

Busier - just to answer, I'm not too bad today thanks. Don't work Wednesdays so got a day to myself really. Going to see a good friend of mine shortly, she had a little girl 3 days after I had Joseph. I've sort of been avoiding her but feel strong enough today for a visit.

Been reading with interest your posts with Justa about religion. I too envy people with such a strong faith. I certainly have a faith and do believe but don't go to church. I was very heavily involved in church stuff in my teens. Became a born again christian and used to attend church on Sunday, prayer meeting Monday, bible school Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and clean the church on a Friday. Church was my life. In some respects I resent it as I didn't really have a teenage life, didn't go out clubbing, drinking, have boyfriends (all the usual stuff) but in some ways it was the best time of my life. I felt I had a purpose in life. Since I stopped going I've always felt there is something missing in my life. I never seem to be happy and feel I'm always looking for something.

I often have this conversation with friends and think I need to start attending church and never get round to it. Perhaps it's time for me!

Eulalia

Hope it goes OK today with Consultant. If you feel up to it, let us know how it went.

Marjx

My goodness, what a busy day here. I don't know where to start.
Mainly, to Becaroo, - that must have taken some effort to write all that. Thanks for sharing with us, I can't believe all you have been through. I am so glad you have two ds. Of course you love all your children, whether they are with you or not.

Justaboutthereforusall, Thanks for your words on religion/faith etc. It's interesting to read your messages and bee's. You both write so lucidly, I can never put my thoughts across so well! Bee, I really get what you are saying about wanting to belong to a community - but where? I go to toddlers group at the local church and they have all-age coffee mornings as well. I always feel it would be nice to be truly at home and comfortable with the whole church and believing stuff, but I don't. I like church buildings, they make me feel calm and small, but don't believe in God. (sorry god, if you are reading this!! )
The way I look at it, is if there is a real God, then he will see that I try to be kind, generous and good in Real Life, and forgive me that I don't believe in Him. And he will know how much I wanted and loved my babies too.

Treeblossom, hello to your lovely wriggly one! I imagine her all warm and chubby and soft, tucked up on your lap while you type. Ahhh.

To D from ARC (I think I know who Bee is talking about) Hello!! from Lins (Amy and Daisy)xxx

So many posts, will catch up later. Not got much time, expecting dd home from school any minute but just thought I'd say that the appointment went well.

I asked the consultant about the genetic report and the baby had regular trisomy 21 and it was a boy. I didn't actually ask her for the last bit but she just told me!! It was a shock as I wanted to ask her first and was swithering about when to find out but as it turns out I don't mind. It doesn't change anything of course except a little relief (if that makes sense) that it wasn't a girl as it means that I wouldn't have given dd a sister which she naturally wants. gosh sounds a bit shallow talking about the gender in these circumstances!

It was hard as the meeting was at the same ward I had the termination! However I had ds2 with me to lighten things.

Anyway risk for further pregnancies is about 3%, (2% for age and 1% for the fact it is more likely to happen again). Don't know what to do, feel I am pushing my luck. Also told her I'd not had my 2nd period but she seemed to think its unlikely I am pregnant. I am going to test on Friday morning as I want to know if I can drink at my BBQ or not! Eeek!

got to go, speak more later.

Lins / Bee - can I ask when you're on ARC and reading messages do you log onto yahoo and read them that way or follow them via the daily digests? I find following them via the actual site not very easy. Just wondered what you both did?

M

Marj - to be honest I find arc almost impossible to negotiate around and certainly in my darkest most chaotic moments very tough and not friendlily organised like mn.
I can not always log onto it via yahoo for some reason. Also get in muddle when you read a message there are often lots of past posts or sometimes that days posts underneath!
Maybe Lins can help us.
Justaboutinthesculpturepark - ooh that sounds glorious - next time I come up to Yorhshire I am popping in chez the Justas for pizza and art! And big discussion on Jungian theory versus Quaker porridge.
kisses