support thread for women who have chosen to terminate

[busierbee]

Hello
Busier Bee here - I felt that before I went to bed I wanted to open up officially a new place for weary travellers of those on the road that we have chosen to rest our heads, muse, sob, moan and support each other.
Also the kind, compassionate souls who have not been there but who offer their support and lend an ear and pass a gentle word.
We have chosen to be here and we are here and we are not alone.
Thank you so much all of you -for I personally do not know where I would have been in the last few weeks without you all.
Night - sleep well
kisses and thoughts
BB xx

Hello Everyone of you
Was in Sacre Coeur today - surrounded by lit candles and thought of you all and all your struggles and sadnesses and whilst am not Catholic - I felt somehow was fraudulent to light a candle - i lit one in my heart for ou.
Dear Marj - there was a Saint Joseph - and am glad as feel that was important to see at the end of a hard hard week for you.
Bezzy so sorry to hear you have been poorly - stress leads to these things i think.
SAM - I hope you are still holding yourself in one piece and if you are not, then do reach out to us.
Lins -you my dear lady helped me through a dark spot on Saturday when you texted me back - you are in fact Saint Linspins. I was so lonely in my grief and sorrow Lins - I had seen a film all about loss and grief and how all consuming and affecting it can be - and it struck a chord with me - wept through out and could not stop when it finished.
The rains started too, the museum we were headed to was too long a queue - I just sank into such lonely sadness. Lins you helped me to reach out to lovely man - in fact I just lay on him and cried. That is enough sometimes -not many words are needed are they?
And have just read the words from Tree- about how guilt is a part of the grieving process and it struck another chord. When we lose people we love - and I mean the ones we have shared living loving times with - there is so much what if and if onlys. And yet with our not born babies, the memories are so tiny and limited and precious so is hard to access them in same way. I think then that the guilt can feel disprportionate to us and can overwhelm us sometimes because we have so few memories or experiences to balance it out. Because of the choices we made. So you must be able to talk about that guilt here- no one will intrude I think as the people who feel this is nonsense have other places to vent their feelings.
Oh am banging on am sorry. Going away makes me all philosophical!
BB x

Hi everyone.

Busier, I am no saint! When another human being is reaching out from a dark and lonely place and needs help, it's just the right and kind thing to try comfort them. You'd do it for me. We are Mummies, it's what we do - look after people and comfort and love them. I am glad I helped a little and only wish I could do more. And your pain is so raw and you sound so fragile. But do share it with your lovely man, because he needs to know how you are, he is the person closest to you, and it will help him feel less alone too.
There is something that I had forgotten, which you might like to know - my dh reminded me the other night that he went for counselling on his own after we lost Amy. He got it through his work, (quite a big company) and it was free. He only went once, which he felt was enough for him, but he said it helped him to tell the whole story in one go, and verbalise what actually happened. Just telling it all to someone trained to listen and prompt helped to air how he was feeling and got stuff out in the open. I just wondered if something like this might help your LM, because so much has happened to you two. Don't forget too that there is a dads board on ARC!
Bee my honey, you must let out your grief and pain whenever you need to. I know you were in a terrible place straight after you lost your last baby, and have begun to find your way out of this. But I'm worried that you feel you 'ought' to be feeling a bit better by now, and actually you have every right to be howling with pain. Let it out and we are there for you. I have read posts from women coming up to 'due dates' that will never happen, and been there myself, and it's a very tough time. You can always call me, or post here, or just curl up in a ball. Whatever you need. I do hope all this hasn't sounded patronising, I am sitting here trying to find the words to make that link across cyberspace.

Justabout, that's interesting stuff you write about guilt. I have never really analysed the actual emotion that much. The guilt I feel was very very strong after Amy, but now just pops out of nowhere and surprises and shocks me. For example, I might be typing to Busier "I'm no saint" and into my head springs the words to follow it "after all I have killed two of my babies". I didn't type that last bit, it wouldn't be the place to put that type of blunt and horrid language. But the words were there in my head (and now they are here anyway on MN!). I really hope this doesn't upset anyone here or make you feel worse but after Amy, I felt like I had the word 'murderer' written in red on my forehead. I would walk down the street feeling like everyone could plainly see what I had done. It didn't matter that I knew I had done what we really felt was the right thing, it didn't matter. I took a long time (about a year and a half) to find some sort of peace with this feeling, and even now it is a case of living with the decisions we have made, and trying to find good from a terrible situation. I have to say that over the years I only ever thought it was me judging myself, and not anyone else...but aren't we always our own harshest critics.
I do apologise to you all if this is difficult to read. Maybe someone else feels the same and won't feel alone if they read it.
Phew.

Justa, SO glad your ds is ok! My goodness that must have been a fright. He likes to keep you on your toes doesn't he!

Bezzy, get well soon!
Hello to Ilovemydog, Tree, Sam, Shangrila, and anyone else reading, and a special hug to Marj. xx

Lins xx [off to get stuff ready for work..I hate that 'school night Sunday feeling']

Thank you Linspins - you are so sweet to look out for me. I do have moments of such exquisite pain at the moment and i am not really expecting myself to be any better than I am. I am quite clear that i need to feel it and sit in it and let it out when it is ready. If am honest what is harder this time is that I feel so scared that we have no hope to cling onto due to our age and our feeling that really we have something wrong. So there is nowhere to go with the pain - no resolution in my head. And this time also so much more envy and sense of anger and unfairness and emtptiness.
I think Justa is right we can and must if we need to discuss the guilt - as you so honestly and helpfully put it there is shame and ugly words and shock at what one has done at the same time as knowing it was right. I like you know that it was the right decision for my family but that does not alleviate the ugliness.
I am sure we are not alone - and am sure no-one on this thread would feel shocked.
I do sound in a low spot when I read my posts. But it is only three weeks and of course I tend to write when am at my most needy- I do have sunny moments and do not feel under a permanent black cloud. I did. For two weeks the blanket of sorrow and pain was overwhelming. Now I am freer from it with patches and passing clouds of darkness.
Thank you for the sharing of your DH's experience - what a brave man really to open up his tale like that.
LM's best friend in Hong Kong texted us this morning to say his wife had a baby girl - much longed for, many miscarriages, 6 weeks early and in incubator. So pleased for them but of course our baby should have been coming next Saturday.....
So Lins I too have a scary work day tomorrow - Oh Sunday evenings.
Love to all and especially to Marj.
Justa can not believe you have had another medical emergency! And thank you for sharing your thoughts on guilt and remorse - is it a construct of certain religions to keep us in a state of constantly needing forgiveness? Is guilt part of the Anglican way of thinking? Have i spent too long with old biddies in Churches?!!!!
BB xx

And Lins I know you are not a saint really - and of course I would do the same for you and that is why we are here. Just trying to express how much I needed a fellow woman who was strong enough to hear the rantings of a woman who has made the right agonising choice but as a consequence of that choice has broken own heart. I know you know. And in Paris with two religious ladies my language got a bit swayed to hyperbole!
You are maybe not a saint but you are an angel!
Is that okay?
Anyway glad to be home - although dreading work as have to stand up in front of ten people all day and rant on about reading.
And not sure can fit in clothes.
Bu**er.
NO Justa not butter!
BB xx

Buffer? Bummer? Can't think what word you mean Bee!
Thanks anyway for understanding my rantings here too and trusting me enough to text on Saturday.
Sorry if I sounded overly concerned for you here just now, I can see you do have a good insight into coping! Please don't give up on the hope yet. See what you consultant has to say and wait a little too....

Right, off to bed!
Lins xx

Ladies,

Thank you all for your concern, I've been reading the posting and keeping up with what's going on, just haven't had the strength to post, bit of an emotional rollercoaster.

Wednesday was difficult as I had to travel over to the funeral directors to drop off 2 teddies for them to put in with Joseph. I couldn't park and was so stressed out by the time I got there I was in a right state. I eventually handed over the teddies and then spent the journey home in floods of tears (don't know how I didn't crash the car) worrying that the lady I gave them too would forget they were Joseph and he would go with no teddies to look after him. In the end DH called the funeral directors just to double check they had them and knew what to do with them - panic over!

Thursday came, it was a nice sunny morning. We drove to the crematorium in silence. The service was held in a small, intimate room, which was nice as it was only myself, DH and DD, but because the room was small it didn't feel overwhelming. I decided to carry the coffin, I felt very strongly I brought Joseph into the world and I wanted to carry him. I didn't want to spend a lot of money on flowers and I remembered what Lins said about the coffin being small, so I bought a couple of bunches of frescia (my fav flower) arranged them and tied them with blue ribbon and they were put on top of the his coffin. The service was lovely, the hospital chaplin was very kind and I can honestly say it was exactly the service I wanted for him. My DD had written a poem on Wednesday night and she was adamant she wanted to read it out at the service, as soon as we got there though she was sobbing so much she couldn't read it so the chaplin did. It was so lovely of DD to write the peom (she's such a sensitive soul) she cryed for the whole service but in a way that made me stronger. I managed to hold back the tears until the service was over and they played You'll never walk alone and then the 3 of us just sat there and cryed and cryed. It was a sad sad, heartbreaking day, but comforting at the same time, in a strange way.

DD was very very upset though and when we got back home we said she could chose to do something so she said she would like to go to Legoland so we went off there for the afternoon. She had lots of fun and I managed a few smiles but the heartache never leaves you. It didn't help either that I think every pregnant woman in Berkshire was at Legoland on Thursday, I swear every other woman I saw was pregnant. I kept analysing them all trying to work out how far gone they were, how old they were, how many other children they had. I felt very angry and hard done by.

I didn't make it into work on Friday, DD had been up quite a bit in the night upset so she didn't go to school and I stayed off work. It was a funny day, I felt I can't stay in this constant state of sadness, I have to try and move on. Not put it behind me or forget but just try and live with it as best I can and move on. I went to see a friend on Friday night who didn't even know I was pregnant so that was difficult to tell her I was pregnant but had given birth the momth before. I sobbed, she tried to understand but I know she can't really understand as she's never been through what I've (we've) been through.

Saturday was a new day and I had a bit of retail therapy, spent 16 and a half grand on a new car (as you do). Didn't really make me feel any better and cryed myself to sleep. I try and be strong and if I can keep myself occupied it's not too bad, but it's in those quiet moments I go to pieces.

Lins - I really know how you feel about the guilt thing. I find it all consuming and all I keep saying is I killed my boy. I truely feel I did. I took the tablets and DH and I took the decision that ultimately ended Josephs's life. DH keeps reminding me why we made the decision and I know in my heart of hearts what he is saying is totally right and the reasons behind our decision still stand, it doesn't help the guilt or make me feel any less guilty though. My DD will go into school tomorrow and tell her friends she attended her brothers funeral on Thursday as he died, but he didn't really die, I chose to kill him. Those thoughts / feelings just don't go away - I'm not sure they will ever go away.

I mentioned in my original post I've suffered very badly with PND and I'm quite a depressive person anyway, in my every day life, I have low self-esteem, feelings of worthlessness, like I'm not worthy of love, happiness and constant guilt about everything I do. The past 5 weeks have just played to my insecurities and now I just feel, "I knew I was a horrible person, just look what I've done". I'm living a life in hell at the moment. I've got to try and work through it though, and believe me when I say you girls are my lifeline at the moment. I know you just get what I'm saying and know how I feel as you've been there, it helps so much.

Bee - really feel for you after the weekend. Hope now you're home you are feeling a bit brighter. I know when we went to Cornwall for the first week of Easter, as soon as we got there I knew I shouldn't be there and wanted to come home.

Hope your first week back at work goes OK, I'll be thinking of you tomorrow.

Justa - hope your DS is OK. Sounds like you've had a pretty traumatic day.

Bezzyk - hope you're feeling slightly better and recovering from your tonsillitis.

Take care all, good night god bless. Marj xxx

I've been thinking the past few days, and tell me if this is completely out of the question, but as I've said I get so much comfort and support from you ladies.

Not sure where everyone lives but would it be possible to meet up in person?? It would be great to be able to put faces to names.... as I said just a thought - tell me to bog off if it's completely out of the question. I'm not easily offended x

me again, just wanted to share with you all one of the poems we had at Joseph's funeral. It really says a lot about how I feel at the moment:-

They say there is a reason
They said that time will heal
But neither time nor reason
Will change the way we feel
For no-one knows the heartache
That lies behind our smiles
No-one knows how many times
We've bent our heads and cried

We want to tell you something, so
There won't be any doubt
You're so wonderful to think of
And so hard to live without

So came to say some heart warming words, but will give in to the need to wail for you all and shed a tear for the mummies.

Will be back when better able to support you, but for now know that someone at least knows a little of how you feel. Without having lived through it. That is the power of your words.

In Yorkshire too, and completely game for a meet up if I could help.

Marj1 - thank you for teling us about the day. It sounds like Joseph had a ftting tribute to mark how much he is loved and missed. To think of your bravery carrying his coffin makes me wail for you all. And anyone who has suffering really.

Am worried about my dearest bb, what can we do to help? Maybe it would help you to read back to the early days - and remember how you survived those days. Remember, you need fuel to deal with this. Eat, look only at calm gentle things, keep warm and surround yourself in gentle fabric. Huge love to you. x

Hi All
Marj1 - your words have made me cry today - Thursday sounded like a surreal day, and I know exactly what you mean by it being at the same time heartbreaking and comforting...
I have thought too about how it would be good to be able to just meet up with you all for a coffee one afternoon, but for me I know it is a bit of a fantasy, as I am in Scotland...
I so wish I could be of more help to those of you who are really feeling it right now - I hope writing here helps...
Am thinking of you all, and for those who have struggled through a day at work - I hope it went ok.
I'm doing fine - physically much better. Emotionally it hasn't really caught up with me yet, and I am trying to keep riding a wave that is keeping me just above there.
Love to all - and agree with tree re calm, soft, gentle - I think back to a year ago, and that's what I needed then - am in a much better place now, despite the recent sadness.
xx

Hello ladies

So glad Thurs went as well as expected Marj, I'm relieved that you made some peace with the situation too.

How is everybody else? You feeling better now you're home BB?

Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing by posting this, and I really hope I don't offend anybody who really doesn't want to think about any of this, but I found a couple of interesting articles regarding Down's syndrome and Folic acid.

As you all know, we lost our little baby to this condition, and I've been spending hours each day to try and find answers.

I'm going to try and insert a link now, pardon me if i get it wrong...

"Article 1"
"Article 2"

Bezzy x

Marj, so glad that Thursday was comforting despite the anguish and sadness. It must be hard to see the grief of your dd, but what a brave little girl to read out her poem. Did you find you needed to hold yourself together more because she was there? On our Amy's anniversary this year, we set balloons free, and our 2 1/2 yr dd helped. But a little part of me wanted to weep and sob that day and couldn't because I didn't want to scare her.
I can't remember if you received help or counselling for your PND? I had some which sort of helped but I think it was time going by that helped too. But I can't speak highly enough of meetings like Sands, or ARC parents meetings. I've been to both and that has really helped. It's good, as Tree said, that you can recognise your feelings and relate them to the way you say you are. Being able to 'name' how you feel is the first step to dealing with it, I think. I know that depression and grief are two different things, although you can be depressed when grieving.
I live in kent, if that's near you? I'm not too far from the M25, and would be happy to meet up if you'd like.
Thanks for posting your poem. When you are right in the middle of such sadness, it does probably seem true that time will not heal, and I always found it annoying when people said 'time heals', so I won't actually say it to you! maybe it is more a case of learning to live with this, a new way of being.

Bee, was thinking about your first day at work, and really hoping it went smoothly. Would have been thinking about you, work or not! Hope you are ok-ish today. xx

Bezzy, love to you too.

Sam, glad you are feeling a bit better physically. Wish we could teleport you all the way from Scotland for a cuppa and a biscuit. xxx

Off for a (really) early night...my back is aching from bending too much at work today, and dd was awake 5 times last night too. Think she was dreaming, as she kept saying odd things- "mummy, carry me across the road.." at half three this morning. hmm. She likes to summon me at random intervals in the night for a cuddle or tuck in, little monkey. I go, just in case she needs a wee. Yawn.

Hope everyone gets good sleep tonight, and some cuddles too.
Night! xx

Hello ladies
Marj - such delicately conveyed emotion about Joseph's day - and it sounds calm and peaceful and sorrowful and that you three were united in your feelings. So glad you can take comfort from your family. I am pleased that you felt able to carry the wee coffin - what a loving strong motherly action my dear. And your dd too ... must be a special little girl.
Am so glad too that this space we have all created offers comfort and support to you.In the two weeks after my goodbye baby - I could not find any other comforting space; did not trust anyone else to understand. We do and you guys offer this to me too.
I live in London - not too far from Kent and I think you are in Berkshire are you? Maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle when we are all ready?
But carry on carrying on with us. I have had some very dark spots on my life - mostly after my husband left- although now feel that was nowhere near as affecting as this - and I know how trapped in unhappiness one can feel.
I had therapy - still do- and talked to one or two very special friends. But I do remember my sweet nurse friend giving kind words that stick in my head when things feel unmanageable - just get through this moment - it will pass- it will shift but it is here for a reason. Ride the wave. Let the sadness wash over you. It will feel different in the morning. Stay small and gentle and looked after. It is why we need this space because for a bit the thread we had created was not safe and we need it to be. We all do.
Bezzy - thank you for posting those articles - is so important to understand what on earth is going on.
Will talk more on this matter with you Bezzy.
Linspins and your bad back - sense we should bbe on the island from Mama Mia - have you seen it? Tree and Justa can be in charge of spiritual health, some of us will do the cooking and others hang the washing in the wind. Our children will be in the commune and the men can pop over at the weekends.
I am feeling better at home - although much of Paris was lovely - but can not be exposed to so many pregant women, babies and stimuli really. Need the filter of my everyday life. Also think we ALL need to accept and know that the sadness comes in waves and catches you - of course it does. Will become part of us soon but we will never ever forget. I do not want to.
OOhh i love you ladies.
BB
Tree - am emailing you sweet hearted one.

Bezzy - thanks for the articles. I will print off and have a good read and take them to discuss with my Consultant next week. Interestingly I didn't take Folic Acid with my m/c and this last pregnancy but did with my DD - maybe there is something in it - who knows.

Busier - yes I'm in Berkshire so Kent/London would be within easy reach for me. Would love to meet up, maybe it's something we can consider for the future. How was work today?

Lins - About PND I've had years of counselling for this and my negative thoughts but hasn't really done much good. I think a lot of it is state of mind and how your mind is programmed and conditioned and it's breaking the habits of a lifetime. I have huge problems with this as I'm so black and white in every area of my life, there's no grey area for me, I'm all or nothing.

I'm going to look into the SANDS and ARC parent meetings as would be keen to attend these. My local hospital has set up a support group and I'm attending their meeting next Wednesday.

Are you doing OK? You offer so much support to all of us, just wanted to check you are doing OK.

Justa/Tree/Sam - hope you are all OK.

Marj xxxx

That would be great if you could ask your consultant's opinion on those articles, interesting to know if it's worth stockpiling the folic acid ha ha (PS it's bogof in Tesco at the moment)

I'm in Bristol, so unfortunately a bit too far for a rendezvous

B x

Hi everyone - hope all ok?