to not want to be the only one who does the dinner everynight!

[Hai1988]

Basicly as i said above, even on DH days off and holidays I am always the one who does it!
and y does he always want feeding when ive just sat down or in the middle of something!!
ITS like having 2 4 year olds in the house sometimes

Does ne one else have this problem, living wit a man who still thinks its the stone age and women cook and man works {shock]

BTW i found out on a recent holiday with the fil that he has these same views on life so ive worked out where its come from {angry]

"To say as a woman thats all you can cope with is just pathetic. "

There are women all over these boards who are finding it hard to cope with being at home with the children. That sort of casual throwaway comment has the capacity to do a lot of harm. You never know who is lurking on threads.

All I was saying is that if you worked solidly between 9.30 and 3.30 while theyre at school then all the housework would be done.

Then look after the kids from 3.30 - 7.30 (in my case as thats when bed time is) Dp would get home around then too so both your working days end and then anything else that pops up i.e. kids waking, washing up dinner stuff, taking coffee cups out or whatever can be shared.

All I know is if DP was at home all week and kids at school. And it got to the weekend and there was housework to be done that could have been done easily while the kids were at school.. id be pretty pissed!

Your comment about 'childcare and running a home never ends' sounds a lot like 'a woman's work is never done' to me

Its not women's work, women can cope with so much more and regards all the women that could be on this board find it hard to cope with being at home with the children (although I have never spoken about people with children at home... i have talked about children at school) I would argue that the reason they feel they cant cope is often because is it so readily assumed that all the work they have to do is soooo hard and taxing.. when actually its just boring and repetative - thats why its a struggle.

There's so much 'i can't' and Im sure it all comes from a society that makes out all women can do is cook, clean and look after children.

I have to admit that I'm struggling with the idea that as a SAHM you can't get all the household chores done in an 8-hour day and still have time to get dinner on the table.

When I was on ML, it only took 4 hours pw cleaning the house, once a week only. And then another 3 hours pw to do laundry, ironing etc. I would then have all my HH chores/tidying up done by 10am, leaving me all day to meet friends, shop, take DD to groups etc, before heading back home at about 4pm to start dinner. And that was with a very small baby to juggle - all the feeding, lack of sleep etc. I was up at 6am every day to manage it though - but that was my choice to get up earlier so I could have as much free time as possible.

Its harder now that DD is a bit older, but we role-swapped for a year until she was just gone 2, and my DH found roughly the same was true. As soon as DD was old to crawl, she had to help clear up after she finished playing, clear the table etc.

We are both anal types though so like to run things a bit like a nice bootcamp

The big thing that did make this manageable though was an unwritten and unspoken agreement about what was within the SAHP job description. Things like sorting the gardening, DIY, buying things like clothes for DD and stuff for the home were absolutely out, and were shared equally between us in our free time.

Cooking is a pleasure for both of us, so we also had a cooking rota - which included one night a week of "easy" slam in the oven night, and one takeaway or eating out night.

Lots of stuff done online as well - banking, bills, research into things, food shopping - all makes life much easier. And these jobs were (and still are) shared between us so that I now do half of them whilst at work (they take 5-10 mins each and everyone deserves a bit of downtime even at work)

Having said all of that, Hai, your husband sounds like he needs a good kick up the jacksie. What was his home arrangement before you met like? Did his Mum do everything?

You contradict yourself though foureleven

You say that she should easily be able to do all teh household chores

And then in the next breath that women are worth more than doing household chores

If someone has a cleaner and that enables them to do away with the mundane shitwork and concentrate on other things, then why the hell not. To insist that women are worth more, then as soon as one comes along and says "yes! I have freed myself of the shitwork and can instead concentrate on otehr things which make me happy" you are utterly horrified and tell her to get straight back into the kitchen, that she is failing in her duties.

I find your position contradictory.

If someone wants to have a cleaner, and can afford it, and that frees them up to do other things they enjoy, then why on earth not? Despite all the protestations you are quite clearly stating that it is her duty to do these things.

"Your comment about 'childcare and running a home never ends' sounds a lot like 'a woman's work is never done' to me sad

Its not women's work, women can cope with so much more"

You lift my comment and qoute it out of context. I was comparing being at home with the children to paid work out of the home and saying that for me, paid work out of teh home is by far the easier, more rewarding option. You have managed to twist my point about how great it is to work, around to say that I was claiming that women cannot manage to do paid work outside the home.

You are sort of reading what you want to see.

Roman, for instance, is starting her full time job soon, having settled into a brand new country that she moved to to support her DHs career. What an idle bitch!

The biggest takeaway from this thread is just how differently people allocate their time to tasks. Really hard to compare workloads here... I am stunned that anyone could spend an hour getting their children up in the morning, but then others are probably stunned at how much time I spend cooking supper

Im obviously not explaining myself properly.

It is not women's job to do housework.

It is the job of the person at home.

If a person chooses to stay at home instead of go out to work, then they should spend equal time to the person who is outside of home working.

By 'freeing' yourself from housework to do things you enjoy you are putting yourself in the position of someone who contributes less and cant handle as much work as the person who is working outside of the house and if you are a woman then you are contributing to the myth that women cant really manage much..

I didnt say Roman was an idle bitch. Its never black and white so the arguements I make are of course generalising. In fact my arguement was that one woman, with one four year old child at nursery for half of each day can more than cope with housework and getting dinner ready each night.. Which is true. Look at thebossofme for example. My experience of being at home on mat leave was similar. Soooo much time on ones hands.

I thought we'd already worked out that in the example given, the person with children of school age were putting their hours in before and after school, and into the evening. While the person working out of the home was putting their hours in in the middle of the day and having a break in the evening.

You seem to be saying that work only counts if it is within office hours. That the person at home should be working all teh time that the other person is at work, and then doing the extra hours in the morning and evening as well. Or something.

Personally I think that if people can afford to farm out some of the shittier jobs, and it doens't make them feel guilty (), then why not go for it. Will make for a happier home in the end.

foureleven - but you can easily combine enjoyment and contribution. I love having friends round - my friends, DP's friends, the children's friends - and family to stay etc. That is lots of extra work and organisation, but I like it - and everyone else appreciates it like crazy, too!

no.. not as far as I remember..

surely the person who works out side of home would do maybe 8/9 hours AT work then maybe an hour commute either side.. Thats 11 hours.

Also, that was saying that the person at home DOES do the evening kiddy stuff and evening house work. In which case yes they probably are putting in their 8/9/10 hours work.

Im bored now. you'll never admit that 'running a household' with one nursery/school age child and a DP/H isnt actually hard work...

However most others on here have done so Im not bothered really.

Thinks that now may not be the time to mention that in my current life, I now have a fulltime housekeeper and nanny, so don't have to do any housework at all (apart from cooking which I love).

Mentions it anyway...

...and then runs away and hides...

You are stuck in this idea that everyone has the same life as you.

Not everyone has an hour commute each side. Not everyone works a 9-5 pattern. Some people work weekends, shifts and so on. And live 10 mins from work. Or work from home.

Most people with full time jobs are not out of the house for 11 hours a day with no breaks You seem desperate to talk up how hard it is to WOTH and talk down how hard it is to SAHP. My personal experience is that the reverse is true. You don't want to hear that though , as it doesn't fit in with your world view.

Anyhow. People do what's right for them, that's fine by me.

A woman who has a cleaner is not lazy, feckless, or letting women down. She is simply in teh fortunate position of being well off enough to farm out some of the shittier work. That does no-one any harm.

As for running the household - it depends doens't it, on a variety of factors. The DP/DH might spend all teh time making a huge mess and not lifting a finger to help, and then going mental if the place isn't up to his standards. The person who is at home might have depression, teh child might be really difficult for one reason or another. It is not helpful to just say "it's easy".

ImSoNotTelling - but the OP isn't talking about having a cleaner to make her life easier, is she?

She's talking about a lazy-arse husband who won't lift a finger even at weekends (where duties should be shared), and I don't think she has the money for a cleaner.

Very few people would argue that a SAHM shouldn't have a cleaner - I think that what people are saying is that if you can't have a cleaner due to financial constraints, it is the job of the SAHM to do the lion's share of the housework during the weekday, and that includes cooking an evening meal.

And from what I can see on this thread, people are also agreeing that in the evenings/weekends, its equally the WOHP's responsibility to do their bit.

But I think you're being disingenous to say that for a lot of women with one child, being a SAHM is really hard work. Because most SAHMs I know (including myself when I was one) were far from overworked when they only had one small child - endless M&T groups (AKA opps for gossiping with friends), coffee mornings, lunches, time for the gym. Yes its gets harder when there is more than one child. And its a nightmare when the DP is a lazy arse and won't do anything at all, (the reason why the OP is struggling). But SAHM with one small child = hard work to the extent that putting a meal on the table in the weekday evening is impossible - I don't think so.

I was talking to foureleven who was talking about roman's situation. It is part of a conversation which has moved away from teh OPs situation to talk about a different one.

"But I think you're being disingenous to say that for a lot of women with one child, being a SAHM is really hard work."

Where have I said that?

What I have said to foureleven is that she should be mindful of different situations and people who may be lurking when she makes statements like women who struggle at home are "pathetic". A woman with PND for eg may be reading the thread and could find a throwaway comment like that devastating.

Oh imsonottelling... We cant consider everyone who may be lurking all of the time..

I had PND.

I know everyones life isnt likemine - duh! I think Ive mentioned that I am aware that I am generalising.

And I would never be with a man who didnt life a finger.. I dont think any women should be. I dont think that is the norm.

However of the working people I know in RL 11 hours out side of the home is normal..

Oh, sorry - my bad

And yes, you can't make the same judgements about everyone - someone who has PND, or a child with special needs. And it isn't pathetic to not be able to cope at all.

TBH, I'm in the same position as Roman, but the other way around. I moved the family to further my career and provide a better life for my family, my DH has yet to find a suitable career opportunity here (though, fingers crossed, something super is in the pipeline).

But we still allow for home help in the family budget (and we always think of it as the family budget, not money I earn - the same applied when I took a nice long ML and wasn't earning for a while and he was).

Do I think my husband is pathetic to not want to do it himself, or lazy? Hell no! He is so far from lazy, he just has ambitions as well, and having to do all the housework himself would hold him back from fulfilling those dreams. Plus the housekeeper does it so much better than him .

And, TBH, I expect the same if we were ever in the position that I could go back to being a SAHM whilst he works. Not sure I would want to, but I would absolutely expect that if I did, and I wanted the help and can afford it, I would get it. If you can afford it, why not? I'd like to use the time to do things like finish my doctorate, to learn some more languages, to just be able to mooch around some galleries, rather than polishing the skirting boards. Doesn't make me lazy either...just very lucky to be able to do these things.

Some things we always do ourselves though - cooking, bedtime/bathtime/storytime with DD,getting her up in the am, any appointments with her - that's part of being a family, and not something we willingly outsource unless there is no other option.

With no breaks foureleven? you keep moving the goalposts.

You just seem so hell bent on saying that work outside the home is super-hard and work at home is piss easy.

I am just trying to point out that that may be the case for you, but it is not the case for everyone. And therefore you should not make sweeping statements like women who can't cope at home are "pathetic".

Personally I find working outside the home fun, fulfilling, rewarding etc. I don't find it hard as I enjoy it. However I wuold never say that people who find work outside the home difficult, or stressful, or whatever, are "pathetic". I would think that I don't know their situation, and that possibly they are not in the right job.

I find all this random judging so sad. Bottom line is, roman said she had a cleaner, and that she amused herself in the hours between school drop-off and pick-up (when not walking the dog), and you came down on her like a ton of bricks, saying that she was supporting sexism, being flaky etc etc etc. That is what I have taken issue with.

Your last paragraph.. I still stand by that.

And yes no breaks.. most people in high responsibility roles dont really have breaks. Maybe to make a coffee or dash to the bank mid afternoon once evry 3 months or so..

Regards my 'pathetic' comment - "That must be an average (oh so tough and comparible to a day in the rat race) day for someone at home with the kids...

To say as a woman thats all you can cope with is just pathetic. "

I was saying that I had had a day at home with my daughter and it was a piece of piss.. loads of time to sit around and do nought. I said if you couldnt cope with that you were pathetic. And I stand by that too. Of course I dont mean this if you have PND or whatever, but Im not about to list a detailed disclaimer with every comment I make.

I really don't think it's a given that just because you can afford to buy lots of domestic help, that you will do so. I could easily afford a FT domestic helper - I would just hate it, though. I know lots of people who feel that way - who don't want a stranger in their personal space all the time. It's just a question of personal preference.

Bonsoir - I agree, if I were at home, I think I might hate to have someone around all the time. We are in the lucky position that our housekeeper gets that and always finds that there's something to do in a room away from us, but if someone was under my feet all day long, I'd probably opt not to have so much help. Some don't mind though - I know a few people here who welcome the company. My home help is very far from dim and is actually quite lovely - she speaks 5 languages, knows tonnes that I don't and I have no doubt would have achieved very highly indeed had she been born into a wealthier family. I consider myself lucky to have her in many many ways.

TheBoss, you have moved to Thailand, if I recall? I think having hired live-in help is a different experience in the South-East Asia and other parts of the world. Sadly, the economic imbalance means the maids know they have to make themselves scarce.

Having grown up with a live-in maid myself, in a culture where it is quite normal, this privacy issue does not bother me. I don't really notice people underfoot. I guess my house was also bigger and more airy.

Imsonottelling - most women I know who work do 11 hours+ outside the home, and only manage to restrict it to that by working non-stop during the day with maybe 3-4 breaks of 10 mins each which are used to pay bills, look for things for kids online, order internet shopping etc. Maybe its a SE London thing of long commutes etc, but IME that is the rule round here, not the exception.

blueshoes - Bangkok is now home, good memory (although still forget that and talk about Surrey as home now and again!). You're right, maids do know how to make themselves scarce, but, TBH, I don't mind so much when she doesn't because I already like and respect her. She has many talents which I don't (languages for one) and has had such an interesting life experience - I'm lucky that I have someone who's bringing some real enrichment to our family life. Ditto our nanny (although she trained and worked abroad for many years, so a slightly different experience).

We also pay well over the local rate, and treat our home help very well in comparison to dome. Getting some raised eyebrows for it around here - but, like you, I grew up in expat households where home help is the norm, and its always sat uncomfortably with me when they are automatically assumed to be dim, lower class etc. They are part of my family life, and its important to me that my DD grows up recognising the luck that is on her side and learns respect for others.

Oops - that should be "in comparison to some". The sun is down and a couple of glasses of vino have already been sunk in BKK. Whereabouts did you grow up, blueshoes?